Originally Posted by shaharov (Post 1221363)

I read this CBC Article http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/stor...earms-act.html and really in some ways kinda agreeing. I guess We'll wait and see but basically the Canada Safety Council has starting looking at having Replica Firearms as a registered weapon (I guess the illegal outright thing really hasn't worked well) I'm not sure of what that would mean for airsoft.. but thought I'd ask peoples opinions.

Originally Posted by Eeyore (Post 1221383)

Besides the registery part, isn't this what most of us want? I remember many thread with people suggesting that airsoft guns and replica firearms be made "firearms". So that with a Pal one could legally purchase and import them.

Originally Posted by Jeff Chen (Post 1221521)

Hmm... so airsoft guns are legal? I thought it's always prohibited, expecially the replicas like the KSC ones from Japan?

Originally Posted by Thenooblord (Post 1221527)

you can own them, you just cant import them or buy them or sell them

Originally Posted by L473ncy (Post 1221417)

<Insert generic yearly "the sky is falling airsoft is no more" post here>

Seriously this pops up every year at least 2 or 3 times it's not going anywhere and airsoft is pretty much here to stay unless we instill some sort of Big Brother Orwellian society with the liberals (far left authoritarian liberal I mean, I consider myself a left of centre liberal with a libertarian tilt) being Big Brother.

Originally Posted by 13Fido13 (Post 1221399)

OH NO! The sky is falling!

/scarcasm

Originally Posted by Random Fire (Post 1221790)

I agree completely, this is something that "WE" as a group of voices we should be organizing our self's and our sport. So that we can be a great position when and if someone decides that they will try to make waves in the pool. It's not as difficult or as big as looking at the whole picture at once, but start with the basics and one person at a time it can work. I want to see this sport grow and be strong in canada, not some backyard misunderstood sport.

Originally Posted by dogtoy (Post 1221990)

With a name like "Canada safety Council" shouldn't be more concerned making sure
toasters come with better instructions to not insert a fork into them ?

Originally Posted by dogtoy (Post 1221990)

If the Canada Safety Council truly wishes to protect Canadians safety
perhaps they should look at tasers , & the militarization of police & thier training,....
perhaps they should also recognize our laws that victimize us further by not even allowing us to carry mace , while criminals will naturally carry whatever they can get their hands on..

Going after a legitimate hobby , that poses no danger makes no sense
With a name like "Canada safety Council" shouldn't be more concerned making sure
toasters come with better instructions to not insert a fork into them ?

Originally Posted by AngelusNex (Post 1221910)

Also, I saw this in the news paper a month or 2 ago, before the safe airsoft thing, the people pushing it have absolutely no idea that they are trying to get people to willingly register illegality obtained gods...... why not impose a meth registry too... and child porn registry while they're at it.

Originally Posted by GuardianWolf (Post 1222159)

ther are many problems with all of this, one is money, its gonna do like the gun registry, 2 out right bans of the products in question are possible and gonna happen, 3 i get alot of people in quebec come in to buy or look at the guns, so i find that poll is skewed(this is just my personal opinion for the soutshore/montreal/easter townships region), 4 the time its gonna take to pass this bill have it finalized and implemented the amount of air rifles pellets guns etc sold are gonna either go way up cause you had it before the date, or everyones just gona throw them out. but as someone else already stated, in our criminal code not just in quebec but in canada, any use of an item resembling any weapon(this case a firearm) is treated as a real weapon and the person(s) in use of such items to perpetrate a crime, or any act considered a crime or harm to some one else, are to be prosecuted to the extent if it actually was real, so yeah point a water pistol thats black at a cop expect to get shot

Originally Posted by Thenooblord (Post 1221527)

you can own them, you just cant import them or buy them or sell them

Originally Posted by red_baroness (Post 1222180)

Actually, Airsoft guns are legal to own, buy, sell, and import. The Canadian Firearms center has declared them “not a firearm” under the firearms act. They still are firearms in the eyes of the law, of course, so are pellet guns, BB guns under 495 feet per second, paintball guns, starter pistols and even nerf guns. The real factor in determining legality seems to be intent. If your intent is to own, use, or sell Airsoft guns for the purpose of playing Airsoft, then it is perfectly legal. Conversely, if you use one of the above-mentioned guns as theatrical replicas; you would be breaking the law. Not only would that gun become a ‘prohibited firearm’ in the eyes of the law, you could also potentially be charged with a prohibited weapons crime. Scary. So, the trick seems to be to always use the term “Airsoft” when referring to the guns, and never use “replica” (even if it says so right on the box).
Now I did hear a rumor that the RCMP were issuing tracking numbers, and blah blah blah, but I’m pretty sure that is BS. I can’t seem to find the numbers anywhere, and I know of several stores selling them legally, who have also never heard of this. Also, they have inquired with the RCMP, and were told that they are not tracking any Airsoft guns. There are several parameters that CBSA require to be met in order for them to allow the guns entry into Canada. It seems this is where the misconception of Airsoft legality arises- I could get into all this but my fingers are tired! But the long and short of it is that if your intent is to play Airsoft with your Airsoft gun then it is perfectly legal to buy, sell, own and import.

Originally Posted by red_baroness (Post 1222180)

Actually, Airsoft guns are legal to own, buy, sell, and import. The Canadian Firearms center has declared them “not a firearm” under the firearms act.

Originally Posted by red_baroness (Post 1222180)

Actually, Airsoft guns are legal to own, buy, sell, and import.

Originally Posted by The Saint (Post 1222250)

On a case-by-case basis and it has nothing to do with the Firearms Act.

Originally Posted by shaharov (Post 1222279)

Airsoft Guns are clasified as Replica Firearms as per this clause
in the Canadian Criminal Code 84.1

So as per the Criminal Code act these are Prohibited Devices


However, on grabbing the clauses I ran into an exception:
Section 91.2

Actually.. in all the criminal code the phrase "a prohibited device, other than a replica firearm" is used constantly. I never found a clause that has prohibited device without explicitly excluding replica firearms. Maybe we are allowed to own them (any Lawyers out there... please comment)

Regardless.. Law enforcement does not interpret the law but enforce what they believe to be the law (they can be wrong, why we have courts and appeal processes) This is from the RCMP Site dealing specifically with replica devices http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...plique-eng.htm



So as far as law enforcement is concerned replica firearms are illegal and may be seized for destruction, which is why CBSA will seize airsoft guns coming across the border.

Seriously though, If there is a lawyer can they look at the exceptions of the criminal code, it looks like replica firearms have been excluded from most clauses dealing with prohibited devices (in fact all clauses, except the original definition).

On a side note.. Apparently Canada Safety Council claim that hybrid cars cause collisions. I think that they can't protect everyone from their own ignorance or stupidity

Originally Posted by red_baroness (Post 1222813)

Being a master misinformation I guess you'd know.
:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by red_baroness (Post 1222880)

That's all well and good, but you didn't include a definition of "replica firearm" which can be found within the firearms act itself. Traditionally this includes the phrase "non-firing," or "theatrical."
So again it comes down to INTENT. Ever wonder why a store can sell bb guns, pellet, paintball, blank firing starter pistols, but CANNOT sell NON-FIRING REPLICAS. It's all intent.
Non-firing replicas are intended to simulate a real firearm and nothing else. Airsoft, BB, Pellet are intended for gaming and target shooting.
The former is illegal except for theatrical purposes (and then only with a wrangler's permit,) the latter is perfectly reasonable and lawful (so long as proper safety concerns are met.)
Ya digg?

Originally Posted by shaharov (Post 1222961)

Saint is right here, and for reference in my previous post I did include the definition as defined in the criminal code of canada. I didn't find a definition of replica or prohibited devices in the firearms act (as replicas arnt firearms until they meet the defition of firearms, at which time they fail to become replicas as the definition of replica states that it isnt a firearm). All in all saints right except you can modify the muzzle velocity in an aeg and some gbb pistols (kjw by adjusting hammer spring) so that they are cassified as an unregistered, unlicensed firearm, like a pellet gun, but I wouldn't allow these on a field as they can seriously injure people. this is the bases for the new cansafe guns firing at 430+fps.

All in all Saint is correct here

sorry for typos... im doing this from my phone

Originally Posted by red_baroness (Post 1222969)

It clearly says in the Regina V. Willy Wong document that he was importing them as THEATRICAL REPLICAS. Meaning his INTENT was to sell to lisenced film wranglers. That's illegal like I said earlier.
He brought them in as replicas. So of course they stayed replicas. INTENT again is the key.

Thanks for proving my point Saint

Originally Posted by shaharov (Post 1222961)

Saint is right here, and for reference in my previous post I did include the definition as defined in the criminal code of canada. I didn't find a definition of replica or prohibited devices in the firearms act (as replicas arnt firearms until they meet the defition of firearms, at which time they fail to become replicas as the definition of replica states that it isnt a firearm). All in all saints right except you can modify the muzzle velocity in an aeg and some gbb pistols (kjw by adjusting hammer spring) so that they are cassified as an unregistered, unlicensed firearm, like a pellet gun, but I wouldn't allow these on a field as they can seriously injure people. this is the bases for the new cansafe guns firing at 430+fps.

All in all Saint is correct here

sorry for typos... im doing this from my phone

Originally Posted by Lestat_d (Post 1222998)

Question: Once the retailer drops the FPS to <400 levels, doesn't it become a replica again -- and we are at risk of seizure for possessing; or is it just the importing of replica's thats prohibited?

Originally Posted by red_baroness (Post 1222980)

You should try looking at the AIR GUN FACT SHEET on the RCMP WEBSITE

Originally Posted by Lestat_d (Post 1222998)

This is all very confusing; and my mom says I am a pretty bright guy... :)

So if I get this right -- importers bring them in while they are above the normal FPS thresholds we game at, to take them out of replica classfication (prohibited) and into unrestricted firearm classification (okey dokey).

Then the retailer in-Canada reduces the FPS to the <400 fps mark before selling, so someone doesn't get zapped on the game field...

Question: Once the retailer drops the FPS to <400 levels, doesn't it become a replica again -- and we are at risk of seizure for possessing; or is it just the importing of replica's thats prohibited?

(rubs head -- ouch)

Originally Posted by Mr.Shiney (Post 1223019)

Regardless of what a governement agency says. An Airsoft Device IS NOT A REPLICA.

By definition in the Criminal Code of Canada:


Replica Firearm
“replica firearm” means any device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, a firearm, and that itself is not a firearm, but does not include any such device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, an antique firearm;

Imitation Firearm
“imitation firearm” means any thing that imitates a firearm, and includes a replica firearm;

Certain weapons deemed not to be firearms
(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
(a) any antique firearm;
(b) any device that is
(i) designed exclusively for signalling, for notifying of distress, for firing blank cartridges or for firing stud cartridges, explosive-driven rivets or other industrial projectiles, and
(ii) intended by the person in possession of it to be used exclusively for the purpose for which it is designed;
(c) any shooting device that is
(i) designed exclusively for the slaughtering of domestic animals, the tranquillizing of animals or the discharging of projectiles with lines attached to them, and
(ii) intended by the person in possession of it to be used exclusively for the purpose for which it is designed; and
(d) any other barrelled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or
(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or an energy exceeding 5.7 Joules

This Section 3d would cover Airsoft Devices

We need to stop referring to our Airsoft Devices as replicas, as they are not replicas. At best they would be Imitation Firearms. A replica is unable to emit a projectile at all.

Originally Posted by The Saint (Post 1223005)

You have a car.

It is fully working and therefore classified as a car.

You take the wheels off, but the change is not permanent, so it's still classified as a car. You can always put the wheels back on.

You run your car over with a steamroller; it can no longer ever work as a car again, so it's no longer classified as a car.

Does that help? I'm not having a good analogy day.

Originally Posted by Lestat_d (Post 1223024)

I think I get your point -- its the status at time of import that defines & locks its classification into the unrestricted firearm level; any post-import 'customizations' made after the fact do not change that classification down to replica?

Originally Posted by Lestat_d (Post 1223024)

I think I get your point -- its the status at time of import that defines & locks its classification into the unrestricted firearm level; any post-import 'customizations' made after the fact do not change that classification down to replica?

Originally Posted by The Saint (Post 1223027)

Provided the post-import 'customizations' is non-permanent, yes.

Originally Posted by The Saint (Post 1223036)

That argument would require a level of cooperation from the authority and census among the authority that isn't feasible at the moment.

Originally Posted by The Saint (Post 1223055)

I prefer the term "don't push our luck".

We are currently in a position that's better than we've ever been in since 1997. For the first time, the legal opaque airsoft businesses and the law are on the same side. Now's the time to transition into a sustainable legitimate industry, not to push for more concessions.

Originally Posted by The Saint (Post 1222899)

Let's see now....
Interviews with Canadian Firearms Program, check.
Consultation with CBSA, check.
Lived, breathed and dreamed Criminal Code and Firearms Act for 2 years, check.
Graduate paper based on airsoft-relevant legal research, check.
Said paper submitted to government think tank, check.
Regular cooperation with both above agencies, check.
Legal paperwork for everything I do, check.

Now, let's examine your original statement in detail.



Let's break the above up a bit, dividing them where the trains of thought change lanes.



First of all, the law is two fold as far as airsofters are concerned. You must meet a minimum set of numbers and not exceed a maximum set of numbers. The people running Airsoft Canada seem to be exercising information control over the minimum number, so I'll leave it out. But only if you show the airsoft gun in question has met that legal number is it classified as uncontrolled firearm.

And that minimum number is very high and excludes all airsoft pistols. I can't make this clear enough, there is currently no legal opaque GBB possible.

The second component of the law is a muzzle energy and velocity limit, above which all firearms become controlled (and therefore illegal AND unsafe for airsoft use). This is where you left out muzzle energy. It's a combination of exceeding 500 feet per second and 5.7 Joules. You must meet one and exceed the other, minimum. For example, paintball regularly exceeds 5.7 Joules, but fall far short of 500 FPS.

Finally, neither starter pistols nor Nerf guns are "firearms" under Canadian law. The term "firearm" refers to a very specific set of conditions in Canada that no Nerf gun or starter pistol meets in their default state. Only if they have been specifically modified beyond their original state, then they may be a "firearm".



Here is where you're getting confused. The real factor in determining legality was in the previous paragraph, and it's an issue of classification. All else being equal, the problem with the legality of airsoft in Canada has always been an issue of what they are, not the legitimacy of the activity (barring criminal use).

Government crackdown on airsoft businesses have always been because they were illegally importing and selling prohibited devices. It did not matter what the intent of the seller and buyers were with regard to use (provided the activity itself wasn't illegal).

Now, airsoft the activity does apply as a defence against a number of use-related criminal offences, thanks to the precedence created by paintball.

However, airsoft guns are not recognized as "airsoft" guns in Canadian law. Operationally, they are merely part of the "Air, Spring or Gas" group. There is no statutory or regulatory differentiation between airsoft, pellet and paintball. Distinction is made at the implementation level based on the necessity of different ammunition types, but that's it.



And here is where you go really far off the track. I'm not even quite sure what you're getting at, unless you're somehow referring to s. 87 (Pointing a Firearm). But if that is the case, the fact that the setting is a theatrical production would provide a lawful excuse that is far more concrete than any airsoft or paintball intent.



It is not a trick, and thinking and wording it as such is probably not good. When anything is worded as a "replica", it is flagged by the system as such, and goes back into the same classification issue as before.



It seems to me you are woefully under informed about the legal history of airsoft in Canada.

http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/doc...009bcpc50.html

You may wish to consult the above court decision, which pretty clearly illustrates why there is no "intent to airsoft" defence. That, or the half dozen or so CBSA/CITT failed appeals of "intent to airsoft".

Originally Posted by red_baroness (Post 1223121)

Just don't look behind the curtain, right Saint?;)

Originally Posted by L473ncy (Post 1223144)

Red I think you're the one not making sense. Saint has done the research and interviews.

It was presented as part of a masters thesis/dissertation (and I assume survived the thesis defence stage) so I'm pretty sure that what he's saying is 100% (well... maybe 99% +/- 1% for a margin of error) accurate and true.

Originally Posted by L473ncy (Post 1223144)

EDIT: Basically what he's doing is what PK was doing before except not being lazy about some things and secondly has all the legal paperwork and interviews with (what I assume to be officials designated to speak/rule on such issues) to back it up.

Originally Posted by red_baroness (Post 1223150)

Saint acts like he's got the hot new secret, but I prefer to stick with my time tested sources.

Originally Posted by Aquamarine (Post 1223181)

Sorry to threadjack and I know redbaron won't reply since he stepped out but what does a curtain have to do with anything?

Originally Posted by Aquamarine (Post 1223181)

Sorry to threadjack and I know redbaron won't reply since he stepped out but what does a curtain have to do with anything?

Originally Posted by The Saint (Post 1223157)

What secret? There's a very long and in-depth description in the AV Section of my findings, available for anyone with AV'd status to see and use.

You're the one who's putting forth an alternate legal position that makes no sense, therefore, you are intentionally concealing your actual importation model OR someone's sleeping on the government job big time.

Which begs the question, in terms of methodology and statutory basis, how are you getting guns into the country? It seems to me like you're the one with a hot new secret.

Originally Posted by pusangani (Post 1300151)

lol aren't you the Internet sleuth, had u been av'd you'd have your 15 minutes back

redbaroness ain't getting locked up anytime soon, so chill out her guns are legally brought in (and priced very well I might add) PK was using the same method but oft greedy/lazy and decided to cut corner and was caught.

the safesoft thing is a sham, everyone that's kissing saint's ass over this is an idiot.

Lol. Love the Colombo-esque tone of your post though, you forgot to say "just one more thing..." tho :D

Originally Posted by pusangani (Post 1300156)

They should have told you that a tech at army navy confirmed that she gets her guns from them and saved you the time and effort wasted on tryin to be some Internet detective.