Most reliable Gbbr
 

I've been out of the loop for a bit.. thinking of maybe getting back in to play a few games here and there. Any suggestions for a workhorse of a gbbr? Perhaps something ready out of the box? My current thought is a WE m4 + necessary parts to keep it working.. but I see a g36 has also come out since I was gone. All suggestions are welcome.

Thanks

well, you could try your hands on KJworks M4...

should have mentioned.. Strong blow back and feel is important.. So maybe I'm leaning more towards WE's?

i got Umarex H&K G36KV by VFC, people complaining it was too loud...lol
blow back not too shabby, too bad you're way out there in the west or you could try it :)

From my personal experience, I recommend the WE M4. Good recoil and will hold over straight out of the box for quite some time. All you really need is an NPAS to adjust the fps and your good to go.

If and when the internals give up, replace it all with RA-TECH parts including trigger group, hop-up, inner-barrel, etc...

Should you find the recoil insufficient, you could try aftermarket buffers that claim to increase the recoil by "70%!!"

There's no 'KWA' in there. VFC makes the G36KV GBBR, and its licensed by Umarex. :)

Speaking of KWA, you should take a look at the KWA LM4. So far its been getting good initial reviews.
Out of the tried and tested ones, I'd say a WE with the proper upgrades would fit the bill.

Here are the options:

KJW:
(+)Best porven GBBR reliability,
(-) Low Recoil

WE:
(+) Hardest kicking GBBR OOTB
(-) Medicore Reliability

KWA
(+) Appears to be a highly reliabile GBBR if you don't screw around with it (load more than it could hold, adjusting hop improperly)
(-) Medium-High kicking GBBR, Lots of pripiertary parts (non-compatiable with WA, WE or AR-15

Inokatsu/Viper (WA System)
(+) Best External material OOTB, High kicking GBBR
(-) Poor reliability, Poor gas efficiency

G36...
WE G39 vs Umarex's Version G36 is a bit unclear, most folks who had VFC/Umarex said it VFC was better in general but slightly less kicking.

Anyone has experience with G&P WOC?

I've been reading quite a lot about the KWA's LM4 since yesterday as I just bought the one from the classifieds (eager to get it now! first GBBR I'll get :P)

Reviews and what not seems to say it is indeed reliable
Some people (maybe 4-5 mags out of 10, so arguably "few to a lot") had issues of very slow leaks from the output valve which is easily fixable using a ValveKey, cleaning and oiling it up.

As for the recoil, there's a discussion on Kwa's forum about the Angry Gun recoil kit (which breaks the bolt) but where some guys uses RS buffer/springs with good results.

In my opinion there are no such thing as a reliable GBBR, unless you have a buttload of cash to spend on custom fabricating parts from steel. GBBR is essentially 90% accurate replica of a real gun with pot metal and as such the word reliable, accurate and precision are non existent. The best GBBR I've seen and shoot was a custom GBBR from a custom shop in HK which itself is essentially 100% custom with custom fabricated CNC parts, the cost itself is equal to 8 real steel Kimber pistols.

As far as our accepted tolerance of reliability with GBBR well the KJW, WE, G&P WOC and the newer Daytona gun is the top performers and even then some cash is required to make it "reliable"

I had it as first GBBR, its better than most WA system out there. Still has a lot of flaws (I would prefer KWA LM4 over it if I had to choose)

It doesn't take a boatload of money to make WE, KJW or KWA reliable. We all hear people bring 'backup' AEG...makes me wonder how AEG much more reliable

The major issue with KWA are
1) loading 41 rounds to a 40 round magazine
-> BB crushed, misfeed, doublefeed, feedlips damaged, follower damaged
2) Improper use of Hop-up tool
-> Hop up dial's teeth stripping
3) Gas mag leak
-> Drop like 15 drops of AI gas oil into make, tighten up the release valve. Problem solve 99% on first try.

LOL I think you're very ignorant on GBBR's. You try any of these guns? You have full builds?

Don't take all that much to make an AEG-reliable (or even more, given the ease with which you can check all the components) WE GBBR.


Fox.

I always suggest a WE AR as a first choice. While there are bugs from time to time most of the info on how to fix those problems are out.

For a WE I highly suggest with the exception of a Npas you keep the stock parts until something breaks. Then change all the internals to steel.

They key to proper realibity towards a GBBR is like a RS rifle; maintenance and proper cleaning and lubing.

I own a WE, and I love it.

hahaha, you're right....was cleaning my KWA MK23....meant to say Umarex :)

I have about 20 WE GBBRs all models except the M14

Reliability is not as good as a good quality AEG .. properly tuned..

enjoyment is much higher in use than AEG in my opinion.

the best reason to use GBBR-- particularly the WE versions, ease of maintenance and repair. Availability of Parts is good, and even a goob like me can fix them and replace parts. I have never even attempted opening a AEG.. but I have torn down and rebuilt lots of WE M4s

use of RS parts to boost durability is a bonus as well

Eeyore and Wildcard are hitting a good point with GBBRs. Because they're relative newcomers (gas-in-mag, open chamber systems - we all know classic airsoft were HPA blowbacks), the major hurdle in regards to improving and maintaining reliability and competitive performance is community knowledge of the particular system/brand you choose to buy.

In some circles, that may make WA/G&P or KJW the prime candidate, but on ASC we appear to have quite a large number of WE open and closed chamber users, as indicated by the encyclopedic threads on the two systems. This makes it a lot easier to diagnose and solve problems with the gun, and in my opinion put it ahead of other brands as an option for a GBBR, hence my purchasing one. If you go WE open chamber and run propane, there will be no shortage of info on how to get it running well enough to game against AEG wielding players, and in that respect KJW and WA would be close behind. The KWA system looks promising though, but time will tell. The brand itself also has its own forum, so that should help for finding information on upgrading the gun.

A buddy brought his 416 over the other night...two body pins, 1 fore end screw, 1 barrel nut, 1 chamber screw and the whole upper was apart the crud picked out of his chamber.

In the same 5min of doing that...I would have barely have gotten the grip off an M4 AEG.

That's the ease of working on a GBBR vs. an AEG.

All airsoft stuff needs maintenance. If either platform is working well...then it'll just need it a whole lot less frequently. But with both platforms gremlin guns are just PITAs.

Most reliable...it comes down to the mags and how they interact with the gun (ie knocker/nozzle/etc...).

Some systems have inherent weaknesses...more design flaws than anything.

With regards to "upgrade" parts....I have a bag full of CNC steel hammers/sears/knockers/etc... None of them get used because they aren't really needed. Beware of mixing in parts between brands.

I'm fully convinced that a little "slop" is a good thing with GBBRs.

What are the top five things to mod on a GBBR to get the best accuracy and reliability?

Let's break down the most common platforms and brands. WE Open and Closed bolt. WA and it's copies. KJW. and any others.

I know the NPAS is nearly a must have. What about others like hopup rubbers or chambers?

I'd rather not put a NPAS if I'm set on certain FPS. I'd prefer to change the valve/valve spring. Bucking is a must for the WE open bolt (Nine Ball, VSR Modify, VSR PDI, Falcon), as the stock one has shitty air seal and range (max. 50 metres with a 420 pecision inner. Also the mags; either Gen 2 M4, or the VN Style M4 mags (for the STANAG platforms).

Also, unlubricated propane is the way to go. Green gas will mess with the hop up as lube gets into the bucking, not allowing the mound to give enough spin effect.

For reliability in the SCAR, the only must is changing the bolt to a Modify steel one, the rest works for thousands of rounds.


Fox.

Two WE M4s here, very happy with em.

Not much to do out of the box (add an NPAS, drop in a heavier buffer if you want more recoil, lube like your gf is asking for first time anal).

Replacement parts are available. I have mixed feelings about the upgraded steel parts; seems like you need to start upgrading everything else once you add one piece (like upgrading a TM pistol) and given the cost and failure rate of the stock parts it almost seems more cost-effective just replacing with stock parts if/when something breaks.

I have a spare complete bolt group and a spare trigger group, both ready to drop in. Short of backing over the gun with my truck, I think this covers most problems I could encounter during a game and the gun could be back up in a matter of minutes.

The CO2 mags have been extremely reliable (and non-leaky); the new (v2) propane mags are supposed to be better as well. I generally prefer CO2.

The only major hiccup on the WE M4s is the stupid bolt catch. Having the bolt lock consistently on an empty mag is not reliable. But I consider this minor and just like AEGs you can tell when the gun is dry firing just by listening to it. If something has to be wonky I'd rather it be that; otherwise the gun is a laser (even the 7" SBR), feeds and shoots reliably and is a joy to play with.

Just to add, if you replace just one part with steel, it is harder than the stock parts and when it slams against the remaining stock part, you will have additional wear. That is how you get stuck with replacing everything along the line of contact/wear.

Case in point, a friend upgraded his bolt and buffer, and within little time, he had the buffer slam right through the back of the buffer tube making a nice clean hole.

A bunch of opinions here.. WE M4 GBBR INTERNALS REVIEW - YouTube

1. I'd disregard the WE closed bolt generations. They're obsolete. They're still out there, but to be honest they are not worth it looking forward. There's bunches of info already out there on mods/tweaks...some better than others. The #1 Upgrade to a WE closed bolt is...to convert it to an open bolt.

2. WE OB...there's only one mod I feel that's a must do to the rifle...the rest is proper check up/maintenance type stuff or mods to the mags
- teflon tape (plumbers tape) the barrel/hopup rubber so that it seats/fits the chamber securely

3. WE CB/OB maintenance/mods
- use gasket maker (blue or black) to seal the back plate of the mags. Wait until fully cured. Then cycle a min of 2-3 mags worth of gas to clear any residue. If you don't clear them afterwards, you'll end up with silicone/gasket gunk everywhere and will have to strip down/clean it all. I purposely did not do this to see what would happen with a dozen + mags over a couple of games. No cleaning...just a bit more oil/grease before games. Eventual build up will slow down the nozzle enough to cause short/erratic cycling...a very thin layer will deposit on everything attracting dirt/dust. The residue will coat your chamber/hopup rubber and inner barrel. Nothing busted...just takes a lot of scrubbing/wiping to get it all clean. Just did that the other day...runs like brand new again.
- light silicone oil is great for any rotating/bearing/touching parts. Heavier silicone oil is fine too. PTFE grease is fine on larger bearing/rolling parts. Light silicone oil added to propane (same as with pistols) is all that's needed between maintenance.
- the retention cap that holds the buffer retaining pin into the lower receiver can work itself out...eventually crashing with the bolt. Remove, clean, loctite and never worry about it again.
- BB fragments should be picked out as soon as possible...otherwise they will either fracture the nozzle (same as with a GBB) or else prevent the bolt from fully chambering, locking up the gun
- loctite everything you don't want shaken loose off the gun. Mostly on sights/rails...but the grip screw, front sight screw and

Aside from an NPAS...I haven't done anything else to my personal stock WE M4. I've had/seen/fiddled with plenty of the "upgrade" steel parts...I don't think that they are necessary (they're pretty though) and at best I think they do nothing. If the parts/peices are fitting well there's very little wear on any of the engagement surfaces even after 1000's of rounds. The notorious Part#66 in early gens has long since been fixed in stock guns...so not really a worry anymore.

Re accuracy...once you're into the WE OB, the hopup/inner is very TM VSR10. So you've got a bunch of hopup rubber options...and nubs...and barrels to pick from. If you're cutting barrels...cut them properly. The OB hopup system is "hard"...there's little to no give in it (stock) so very fine adjustments are necessary or else it goes from not enough to too much hop. Changing rubbers/nubs has a dramatic effect on that.

If you really want to fiddle with range and accuracy I'd go extended barrel with a PDI hopup.

To summarize. Starting with a current OB WE M4...I'd:
1. strip it down
2. teflon tape the barrel/rubber for a good chamber fit
3. shim the inner and outer barrel if necessary(I can just fit a thin oring between mine...on a couple I can't fit much of anything)
4. reassemble..Loctite as I go
5. lube with silicone oil or PTFE grease as needed
6. seal back plates of mags

For me...the G&P WOC/WA system is all in the mags. The mags are just freakishly expensive. Internals durability is ok and you can definitely get some that really kick...but I found that the fun turns to suck when you start breaking expensive nozzles and bolts.

Can't comment on the KJW.

no one mention the WE m14? it has way more recoil force the the m4 and IMO is more reliable. ive put thousands of rounds through mine and it has been my main gun for almost 3 months give or take a few games. the only major problem iv had with mine is that the op rod separated due to the rod section being pressure fit on to the charging handle portion. a little jb around the collar and its good as new. used it in a few games after without any sign of it happening again. also get an NPAS and some small washers, even with the Npas at full reduction it still shot 530fps with .20 on a 25c day. put some washers behind that and its shooting 450. the m14 is big, but everyone iv let shoot mine instantly wants one.

I'm running a stock open bolt WE CQBR. So far stock, I followed the pre-fire lube list and I've had to re-seal 2 magazines so far. It's only been out for about 6 games so far. And the end of the day I'll crack it open and air gun any grime off and then wipe and re-lube.

I've been hoping for more consistent hop though and the full under/over scenario is what I've got for sure. I'll try the soft bucking. I also built an extender so it's a bit easier to dial in the adjuster screw but you still have to crack it open. I am trying to work out a piece of cable that I can use as a flexible key so all I have to do is lock the bolt back and thread it in.

I wasn't sure if the hopup was just needing a bit more breaking in or if was time to start changing stuff.

Heavier ammo...Modify or PDI bucking. All hop up problems solved.


Fox.

I'm running .30s which seemed to be the top tip from research. What are the other favorite weights?

Take an Allen key that fits and cut off one leg so it's just a straight piece. Take an empty ink part of a bic pen (or similar). Glue the stub of the Allen key into the flexible plastic ink thingy of the pen.

Rack the bolt back, engage bolt stop and bend in your new high tech tool and twiddle your hop up screw.

Then use the remainder of the Allen key to make one as a backup or for your buddy.

Then send a thank you pm to technosnob 'cause he's a genius




Re. Weights...mine loves 30's....big improvement even over 28's (which my PTW loves)

Nice! and you can roll it up and tuck it into a pistol grip or slip into a battery compartment if your stock has one.

I'm a idiot. Someone post a picture of it.

Ignorant on GBBR eh?? YUP What's a GBBR again?? hhmm let's see I've probably owned and used most of the airsoft gun that was ever made since the days of JACs and shell fed airsoft and in a matter of fact I do own and use classic airsoft and a fully functional custom WE, I've owned pretty much most of the closed and open bolt system since I sold my Garage Gun works/Smokeys M82A1, my favourite WE OB system that I currnetly have is my full RA-Tech XM177, I did own two Inokatsu M4 and I have shot and own for a brief time the KJW and other WA based GBBR like the WOC. I also have the extreme pleasure to shoot the custom GBBR in Hong kong and Taiwan where they are powered by CO2 in individual shells instead of mags, which if I may are way more accurate and reliable than the mag in the gas WE/WA/KJW based system. The amount of money to make a GBBR shoot as accurate and reliable compared to a AEG/PTW are enormous and quite finnicky from model to model and the only one I've seen and shot that will make most of the GBBR in the market now feel like a toy is the Custom GBBR rifle that I had the pleasure to shoot while I was in HK. In terms of enjoyment of use or realistic feel my stand on WE still stands the rest have their pros and cons but in order to fully imitate a real steel rifle a custom GBBR is still the way to go and the cost will be prohibitive to some. There are some systems that exist in Asia that only use CO2 and as such they require a lot of steel parts that is more robust than the usual pot metal that exist in current GBBR.

CNC Parts, Stainless steel and other goodies are available for the current GBBR platform if you know where to find it and don't mind the cost, there are small companies that don't have a website and survive basicly by word of mouth, these companies make a small batch of customized parts, unfortunately since they are quite a small operation we tend to miss them completely.

lol! Luck for him he appears to be in Argentina.

Here's mine, but as said too stiff to use with the bolt in.

You don't really need steel and CNC parts. Gas-in-mag design, CO2 has no advantage over Propane, and doesn't necessarily have a heavier recoil (it actually achieves less overall energy in WE guns because of the design of the CO2 mags).

As I said earlier, at least on the latest WE SCAR (which is the platform I have more experience with), you change the bolt (and it's not even essential), and the gun will run for a very long time. I don't really know what you're talking about.

Also, no wonder you think gas guns are crappy; the RA-TECH parts are the ones that suck for the most part. Their super bolt for the SCAR is horrible, and their trigger group isn't very impressive. Their precision barrels could be worse, I guess. Dude, you bought a "custom" gun from RA-TECH, how do you know the amount of money it takes to make a GBBR shoot reliably and consistently? I know the TM PSG, to turn into a decent DMR platform, can cost over 1500 bucks (all the prices I'm talking about are outside Canada). An OB SCAR (220 USD + 70 shipping), inner barrel and bucking (100 bucks all shipped), and the Modify steel bolt (120 bucks shipped), that's...well, you can get at least couple of 'em for what a PTW goes for.

Oh, I've been to Canada. I don't like Canadians.

I run a DMR, so I used .43. From experience, heavier ammo works wonders on gas guns. I know people who run the KWA MP7 on at least .36 with great results, and I'd even consider .40 for an assault rifle.


Fox.

You're in the wrong forum then.

Why are you on Airsoft Canada then?

Have you built or used a WE with steel and CNC parts? Stating "you don't need" implies it but have you even tried it? You base a lot of your argument on a WE Scar, so what else do you actually have first hand knowledge with?

Let's not turn this into a pissing contest gents.

Fox I suggest you skulk back to your dark corner. Coming onto a Canadian site and expressing your dislike for us will not make your stay here very comfortable. Play nice or don't bother playing at all.

So no need for gas in the mags eh? what do you use in your WE scar? Foxy you need to read my post again i never said CO2 is better than propane I merely stated that a fully customized GBBR rifle with the propellant in the shell instead of the mags system that i have the pleasure to shoot with are far more reliable and realistic than most of the GBBR system out available to normal guys, I never say gas guns are crappy I merely state that there are no such thing as a reliable GBBR out in the market unless you go Full custom My "custom" Ra tech gun was build by myself through the info available here sure I can go for a uber elite custom rifle with custom parts and RS parts but that would make my "toy" more expensive than my RS rifle. Like I stated above there are small companies run by hobbyist instead of corporate types, so small that they survive by word of mouth that does custom parts from trigger kits to CNC metal bodies including mags and other hard to find accesories unfortunately they are so small that they are often overlooked or simply consumed by bigger companies like RA-tech, TSC etc.

Here is another one companies like Ratech, TSC etc. are the ones that made upgrade parts for GBBR affordable but never to a point where they make their stuff indestructible, The rifle I always mentioned are a Precision custom build with tolerances similar to a RS rifle (That's why they cost a buttload) every part inside including the shells are custom milled I would have to believe that any RS parts will fit into that rifle with no issue (which would make it very illegal here in Canada) there is virtually no airleak whatsoever in the chamber compared to any current GBBR it's almost like combining a PTW, daytona(W/O hose) and a OB GBBR with shell eject just like the real thing. Realism is also why some of us go for a GBBR, No? your scar with the plastic lower have a better fit than most of us running M4, with the pot metal lower there are some tolerance issue. There are guys here that have a RS build based on WE OB system that shoot wonders and perform way better than stock or modified version but I would hardly call that afforadable and not everyone here have the know how or access to a CNC or milling machine.

So Just to conclude my 2cents in terms of GBBR reliability, You want a bomb proof GBBR go full custom, if not there are good platforms out there with small modification or a full out mods you will still face issues but not as much as stock, gameability there is nothing more satisfying than to hear a WHACK!, WHACK!, WHACK! instead of a hummer from an AEG.

Cost, well a good GBBR is doable but the question will always exist HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO SPEND?? The quest and cost for realism in airsoft is sometime mindboggling and a bottomless trap which I and many here have falled for. Whether it's a $8000 plus for a ultimate GBBR toy, or putting a $3K worth of RS parts and accesories on a $250 toy it's still a toy made by a chinese company to imitate the real steel version.
So to answer the OP question IS THERE A GOOD RELIABLE GBBR? Answer is YES but how much are you willing to pay??

Alright, now that's a decent reply.


Fox.

Situational Awareness FAIL. Go beat your face.

I know a few guys who came close to Argentina.. in the early 80s... they seemed to like Argentinians fine.. generally not much trouble, easy to deal with..

Kinda like the French..

Aaaanyway... there is some good GBBR.. info compiled in this thread for experienced users..

and it's clear that ASC is THE source for all things Airsoft.. the world over..

Fox is not the only fellow from afar who come here to get info.

It really is quite amazing Canada has on the airsoft world. We seem to have a very dedicated playerbase, maybe this stems from how hard it was for us to get guns for a long time?

As far as gbbrs go i still have to throw in the shameless plug for the kc02, though its not an m4 or an m4 variant its still one of the most reliable out of the box guns you can get in the gbbr market.

seems the best playerbases come from countries with the most restrictive firearms laws. :P japan, canada, uk... who else? :P Wonder if the data actually correlates.

The Falklands belong to Britain. Long live the Commonwealth!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...slands.svg.png

Please grab a number. Your opinion only gets to be heard after Mexico, Honduras, Panama, Costa Rica...well you get the point. Once all opinions have been submitted we will review them and decide who will be proxy countries for our large corporations and which ones will be used to install ruthless Dictators.

ASC staff/moderator - should this user be banned for such statement ?
 

How about you get a grip?

What makes you think the staff haven't already, hours ago, before you even became aware of this post.

Not according to the UN and several ICJ advisory opinions.

Also, Argentina has inherited rights over that territory according to the international law principle of uti possidetis juris.

But hey, we're all ignorant cavemen who speak our language worse than foreigners down h- - oh wait...


Fox.

I thought we were talking about the most reliable GBBR???

My experience with my WE Scar wasn't the greatest. The mags were horrible and my entire bolt broke in two. My KWA MP7 has been a godsend. Originally purchased as a backup it is now my primary. It competes with AEGs no problem sustaining full auto with little to no cool down effect. Maintenance is really easy and it is yet to let me down on the field.

You lost to a superior nation, get over it...

Margaret Thatcher put you in your place :P

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!



ON TOPIC: LOVE my WE M4, only issues it's ever given me were my fault, not the guns.

This thread sucks now. Too bad, had potential.

BB weight for outdoor field, stock open bolt WE or with NPAS running about stock FPS & green gas mags. Favorite weight?

We'll take it as just about given that BB Bastard will be a favorite brand but if there's another put a name up.

Other GBBRs or gas SMGs, join in with what your boomstick is & what it likes to eat.

I want more talk about Most reliable GBBR!

I love the title it's just so... engrish!

I have a WE M4 and a TM 4.3 Hicappa, both are second hand and I love them!

I've replaced a nozzle because the feeder broke and needed to get a new hop rubber because I was poking around in it in the past month but I was able to figure it out in less than 5 minutes. The second one was my own stupidity.

I love GBBR's because they're easy to figure out the problem and then fix it. Albeit the problems can come up fairly frequently.

When it comes to AEG's I'm all Hurrr Durrr. I pull trigger it doesn't go phut phut. Durr. .

That alone makes me gravitate to GBBR's.

I think of AEG's are like a modern sports car. Something goes wrong.. back to the shop! But GBBR's are like an older kit car/sports car. Where something usualy goes wrong but you can get under the hood figure out the issue then pop down to airsoftparts.ca eerrr Carquest. You get the things you need and it's back up and running... for a few days.

Really like the analogy there :)

I was running BB Bastard .25's in my WE PDW (CB long converted to OB short) whites, blacks and tracers. No major mods other than RATech firing pin and valve locker that were part of the CB NPAS kit.

Shot straight until it started getting cooler at night but a slight hopup adjustment made it more than manageable. Bending the tracers around trees and bushes was fun! :D

I've been messing around with the idea of getting a GBBR for awhile, but there seems to be an abundance of information that goes with purchasing, using and maintaining the damn things that it's a bit over-whelming for me. I was considering a WE open bolt, but at this point I don't even know. Could anyone steer me in the right direction? I'm just looking for a gun that's relatively low maintenance, besides the regular clean and lube service you give your guns after a day of playing (which is what I already do with my AEGs)

kc02 if you want a naildriver of a gbbr that wont fail you.

if you want an m4 then a we or kjw

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...21674916_n.jpg
The horse you were riding didn't like you either.

Well played sir.

I think the general sentiment from the previous pages is that if you look after them well (lube and sweet caresses), WE open bolt guns are about as good as any others out there. Even if you do have problems, gas guns seem to have less voodoo involved in fixing them.

Unless one can't afford it, (seems) everyone with an AEG brings a spare gun to games. Balance that with every game I go to I see guys with gas guns with some minor problems. Unfortunately when everything is made in China/Taiwan to the lowest of tolerances, this stuff is just going to break.

Personally I am slowly trying to make the move to gas. I appreciate the simpler design and takedown. Multiply that appreciation by 10 when you include the visceral experience of effective recoil and sound that makes GBBRs not sound like toys.

...canadian horses.


Fox.

That's a very good post.
It's true that in the past GBBR's were pretty much wall hangers, but nowadays I think they've reached a point were they are precise enough to be skirmisheable and can hold their own against AEG's. And as you mentioend, the takedown and realism while gaming just can't be beat by any AEG.

Someone else mentioned the KWA MP7, great gun in my experience too (I've seen it shoot consistently as far as 50 metres - - it's a submachinegun!). It's a shame it uses specific buckings and inner barrels, but it doesn't really need the upgrade anyway.


Fox.

Are among the best out there XP

PLaying with GBBR at CQB is both a blast and scarely. The sound of the gun will keep people back.

So i've narrowed it down to either WE M14 or the PDW long barrel version. I'm leaning more towards the m14 because I feel like it would perform better outdoors compared to the pdw. Anyone have experience with the pdw outdoors?

had the closed bolt long but now converted to the open bolt short

Other than a correctable hook at 150-200ft, I have no problems with it outdoors. It's one of few guns that doesn't crap out on me. Been using .25's but you can see better results with .28's. I find .3's a bit heavy for the short OB system.

My only issue is the damn bolt release pin. Lost it again!

So.. I just ordered the ob long version pdw with 8 mags. Can't wait to test it out.

According to Taiwan website, WE products have good price but the pot metal they use is of a lower grade, which often leads to quick replacement of parts that are taking stress.

Not sure if this is still true for the more recent production. Would appreciate owners of the more recent produced WE GBBR share some of their experience here. Personally I prefer GBBR with reasonable out of the box lifespan before change of any parts.

I love my WE, currently replaced the internals, nothing but pure awesomeness.

I have a WE CQBR with ratech internals and a pdw gen2. I love them both. No problems with the metal internals. The nozzles are giving me issues though. The oring at the back of the nozzle seems to dry out really quickly, causing seized nozzle and/or shattered nozzles. Anyone else having this problem? Maybe I'm not putting enough oil in my mags - usually 2 drops in the tank to fill 8 mags.

Why don't you put oil directly on the O-ring? Do it when you clean it after use.

If your nozzle o-ring is dried out and seizing...then you need more oil.

Worth checking though....
- take the nozzle out of the bolt and see that the inside of the bolt is clean/smooth/etc...
---modding mags and then blowing gunk out of them through your gun is a good way to accumulate a thin layer of silicone/gasket stuff...that will add drag to your system aggravating things
---any dirt/dust/junk that is on your mags when you shove into your gun will end up in the bolt.
---good time to check that the nozzles o-ring is good...and that the piston head ports are free and clear.

So it seems WE GBBR has improved. How about their magazines, in particular the M4 ones for open bolt system ?

They have new mags that are sealed differently. They are supposed to be super.

If they are like those of the M14. They are amazing.

Tighten up the screw at the bottom and it won't leak anymore.

And I run mine dry.

Thanks for the update on WE GBBRs.

Is there any cleaning guides for OB PDW'S floating around out there? Is it more or less the same as cleaning the M4?

Yup...same principles, different shape.

Two things that guys over look are...stock pin screws and the small screws that hold the internal guide rails on. Clean, loctite, and check periodically

I just picked up my we open bolt m16, the nozzle broke after half a mag. Also the magazine came leaking badly out of the box.

Did you lube it up before firing? Regardless it a testament to WE's terrible stock internals that it couldn't even make it through a mag.

The leaking mags are a POS...but quite easily fixable (takes me abour 20min to do up a half dozen).

Sorry to hear about your nozzle...what broke on it? Did it split, did the tip break, was it the feeding foot thing that picks up a BB? Did it break on a misfeed/double feed with a BB not making it into the chamber?

I have noticed that the WE rifles have "tightened up" a bit in tolerances...and I think it's a huge mistake. These things work best when there's a bit of slop to let the parts move freely. It's like a stock pistol vs. a CNC super tuned pistol...the really tight setups will perform better, but the fine tuning is just not practical on a mass scale.

With these things I'd take one with a bit of slop over a really tight fit anyday.

On a personal rant...I'm sick and f*cking tired of fixing/tweaking/tuning "upgraded" RATech parts. What a PITA. They're pretty, they're solid...but they're not to specs that f*cking work well in most setups. And I really dislike trying to fix something that someone else has already "fixed".

To add to the discourse.

My WE came as a CB but the first thing I did was change it to OB.

After I did that I lubed it up with grease and oil per the cleaning guide on here.

Then after that I test fired it.

On the mags I did have to re-seal it looks like the person who assembled them just licked the rectangular gasket to keep it in place while the back plate went on. If they'd just used a bit of sealant when the built the mags they'd still be running fine.

I have not changed the hopup rubber yet, still looking for the right spot with one and some of the other parts I need to consolidate on an order. I also made a V2 hopup adjuster that I'll shoot some details of on the weekend.This one works without cracking the receivers apart.

they use a low quality super glue. they also do not pay attention during the seal and back plate install which typically allows the seal to shift.

if a brand new seal is properly glued in place, the mag shouldn't leak. just about everyone that I opened and re-sealed, I noticed that the seal was either pinched or shifted.

they could also have designed it with a seal that was a little thicker and softer.

Last I heard from Henry is that he doesn't even bother with the rubber seal anymore and just uses gasket maker. I still use the rubber seal + gasket maker...but I've got one mag where the rubber seal is torn (some numbnut pinched it) so I'll try that when I get around to it.

I tried a mag without rubber seal and it leaked like MOFO. But then I am using gray gasket instead of blue Henry uses, not sure if it makes any difference...

I like having the softer rubber seal combined with liquid gasket between the 2 hard pieces of metal as a belt and suspenders setup. Any kind of casting flaw in the mag and the liquid along might not be able to cope.

Question..

Perhaps my speed reading fails me, but I could swear someone said they suggest running their guns on plain propane without silicone. I could see that helping consistency w/ respect to the hop up but would it not increase wear?

What I meant was to run the mags dry.

Oil/grease the rest of the gun, but by having no oil in your mags, you'll have no/less oil in your barrel/hop-up.

I run my mags dry, the oil on the orings is all thats in there, just means from time to time i have to open them up and relube the oring. no big deal for me anyways cus its a good idea to clean the sand and crap out of mags every so often anyways.

Fox62 also said the same thing. Are you still running your gun stock? How many rounds through it?

(thnx btw)

idk about boyso but mine isnt stock and iv also got thousands of rounds through my gbbr, never had any issues with duster or propane.

kjw 10/22 is invincible. Can not break. At all.

100% stock and on Propane.

I'm the second user so idk about the number of rounds but I've fired at least 500 bbs with absolutely no oil in the mags and I haven't had any leaks. And my hop up works like a charm and its stock too.

I've had parts break, but not because of the oil, just because of the awesome recoil :D

same here with mine, never had problems with leaky mags (they either blow a seal or they dont, no in between). only parts that broke on mine were just due to normal use.

Hell i dont even give the action much oil either, i have found, just like on a real firearm, that to much oil/ grase will gum up the action and it wont fire as smooth. i just oil the "gas effected parts" on mine ie. orings and seals.

I did on the standard M4 mags have leaks, but really, on the v2 mags, no problem. Haven't opened them up either.

I found that while the M4 I had before didn't really need much lubrification, the M14 needs more on the action. But the only place I put oil on the internals is on the nozzle oring, and maybe a quick spray on your trigger components to waterproof them, and that's about it.

Over-greasing just makes a mess, and it really gets everywhere, especially where it shouldn't be.

What about the kwa m4 gbbr?

http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_inf...ducts_id=10538

Just got one (magpul edition, asian. the US version has been improved apparently, is more recent), will try it tomorrow for "real" - cant game it yet, not enough mags but will give it a spin on the field

Agreed. Have had zero issues with my KC02. It's probably due in part to the nozzle being much smaller with less travel than AR nozzles, for example, the WE's. The cup at the front of the AR nozzle does help things either when a bb misfeeds and gets chopped by the cup which if done enough times, cracks the nozzle. Oh well... it's the price I pay for awesome recoil.

only thing iv broken on mine was the bolt. dropped in an ratech one and all is perfect.