Why the importance of paintball approved goggles anyway...
 

Well I will tell you why. Saturday afternoon in the heat of a battle on the Bigfoot field Dirtbag fired a simple burst ( p90 fps of 365 with m/t .25's )into an enemy that actualy cracked the first lens layer on a set of JT thermal lens goggles. JT products are one of the highest standards of eyewear protection so this goes to show the importance of "approved" eye protection. Bleeders heal......eyes do not.


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/six4/goggles.jpg

365 FPS with .25g is alot of power..
Heavier the BBs, the more damage.
So the P90 shot aroun 400 FPS with .20g.

i dont see the problem. the goggles did what they were supposed to do. sucky that a new lens has to be bought, but at least the guy is able to fight another day.

i dont think paintball goggles should be used in airsoft

What do you propose we use? I often play with AOS Safety glasses at private fields, however, they don't offer the same coverage protection paintball goggles do. I happen to be lucky with the shape of my face that they cover all angles, but I often see people play with gaps under or around their eyes with safety glasses.

why not anything that has ANSI Z87.1 requirements? ESS and many others have a fine line of goggles.

ESS often get used, but again at private fields. One of the main reasons you see paintball goggles at fields, particularly commercial paintball fields that allow airsoft, is that their insurance dictates the nature of the eye protection, and paintball goggles are an established standard the industry recognizes.

ANSI Z87.1 is an excellent standard and I agree with you in that regard, however, there are issues such as fitment and method of securing the protection to the head that are also important that are unaddressed in ANSI Z87.1.

Paintball goggles inherently protect around the edges and angular shots and they are secured using an elastic fabric to prevent them from moving once they're secured to the head and face. While some ESS models do this to an extent, there are also lines of safety goggles that attach only through the traditional frames of glasses, which makes them hazardous as they can move or be dislodged, particular if the player becomes very physical during a game (diving/rolling etc.).

Incidently how were these goggles stored? I often see people put their goggles on their dashboards or leave them in a gearbag in a car. Radiant thermal heating and cooling at extreme ranges (car dashes can get up to 130 degrees in the sun on a summer day, and freeze in the winter) can compromise the material the lens is made of (expansion and contraction).

this is so true, recently i get to try a new toy so i happen to have an old JT goggles that haven't been cared for for years, a few burst of .20 from a stock galil cracked the first layer of lenses. another shot with a madbull 204 with 750psi penetrated the goggles with ease. So take care of those goggles no matter what makes.

Change your lenses every couple of years (or more if you get shot in the face often).

I dont have my goggle's manual on hand, but after owning a few pairs, i recall at least one manual recommend you replace the lens after a direct shot, regardless if there is visible damage or not. This, in most cases, would seem a bit overkill, however from what ive seen goggles wise (and safety) are generally not the main thing on people's list when it comes to buying gear for airsoft.

Due to the nature of the plastics used in paintball goggles lens, most manufacturers suggest specific types of cleaning solutions, as to not weaken it... including a suggestion to replace the lens every 6 months to a year. This is also why i generally have more than one pair of goggles on me at a time... or at least a replacement lens minimum.

If you play at paintball fields often, you are required by them to use paintball-approved goggles. This is simply something you cannot avoid. I would suggest getting a decent pair of paintball goggles that you can easily replace the lens. A simple lens replacement for the pair i happen to have goes for $20 which is cheap.

retirering googles after certain use seems like a great idea to me. As a rock and ice climber I have a ton of gear that has been retired. I will spend $300 on a rope and replace it after only 10-15 decent falls. If i drop a $25 caribeaner onto a rock even from 5 feet i will retire it to another use. :rolleyes:

Safety is very important and as stated we only have 2 eyes. In general there are many injurys i have seen over the years playing airsoft but luckily eye damage has never been one of them.

I am very happy to see the majority of players being very safe when it comes to thier eyes.

I'm worried more about the set of "eye protection" that doesn't do what it is designed to do then the set that does.

I too use JTs from experience in my early paintball years and have different other goggles depending on what loadout I have (got a Flakjak, Desert Locust, a UVEX thats got a 4mm thick lense and now Daisy Military shooting specs) ... but a good goggle should not crack like that ... how old is the goggle? the lense should have gone "dimple" rather than crack like that unless it has gone brittle ...

The fact the lenses cracked means the lens is underrated for what we`re doing, what would have happened if all the bbs hit the lens in the same spot??
The lens could have broken, or the lens could have fucking splintered off pieces on the inside(and I`ve seen it happen testing a 4mm thick gas mask lens).
Dont ever take eye protection lightly, you only get one pair
IMO, everyone should be using Z87.1+ glasses/goggles with 100% UVA/UVB protection

I beleive you could try to get JT ship you a free lense replacement. As their product failed during normal use and they should back their product.

If they don't... time for bad publicity IMO.

true. i guess im spoiled though. my PB goggle lenses can stop a RS .40 bullet from a USP.

???!!!!

paintball goggles are designed for just that.. taking hits from a large soft ojects that deform on impact and spreads the impact forces over a large serface area.
it's like throwing a beach ball at a window then doing the same with a golf ball.
BBs are hard and brittle objects. they transfer energy through a tiny area of contact which PB goggles are not designed to take. this is why PB goggles can crack and even shatter when hit by a BB. it's unfortunate that PB fields require airsofters to use PB goggles. we should be using full sealing ballistic goggle with an ANSI Z87.1 or better rating.
this will only happer after someone gets hurt when their PB goggles fail and they loose an eye.

+1

I was surprised when i was told i couldn't use my ANSI Z78.1 sealed goggels at flagraiders, i had to rent a pair of JT goggles that smelled like balls... >.<

Paintball goggles are for paintball, where you would not need to get in tight to your weapon to use such things as a scope or viewfinder. Get yourself a pair of Smith Optics Elite goggles or something of that nature.

I personally use the Revision Desert Locust goggles. The Revision goggles are ANSI Z87.1 certified, are on the US Army authorized protective Eyewear list and have stood up to a Remington mod 870 wingmaster super magnum, 26" barrel with improved cylinder choke using heavy load 12 guage, 1 1/4 oz #6 lead shot, velocity at 1300 fps +/- 30 fps at 16ft. The result was 39 strikes on the clear lense, no penetrations, and 43 strikes on the smoke lense, no penetrations.

I think the test speaks for itself. Ballistic goggles FTW :)

I was shot in the eye back in 1988 with a pellet gun when i was a kid. Came out of that with a dented cornea and a detached retina, Luckilly my eye was repaired and is fine now, but since then, i dont mess around with protecting my eyes. Paintball goggles good...... Ballistic goggles better.

Link to Revision Eyewear's Website

Based on recent research on the subject ( I bought and paid for all the referenced standards documents), I've changed my assessment. I won't be using ANSI z87.1 or ASTM F1776 goggles personally anymore. My eyewear will have to be mil-dtl-43511d with full closure like pb goggles. The ANSI Z87.1+ allows for eyewear with gaps and is only tested for industrial applications. ASTM F1776 has testing only for paintballs. Neither test protocols comes close to the analog of intentional high velocity BB rounds and intentional targeting the way the mil standard covers. In essence the mil standard goes all the way to 1.1g at 550 fps - using metal projectiles. This standard far exceeds all materials, speeds and impact velocities of airsoft as we play it.

I'm going to post more information on the Bastard site once I have had a chance to formally and in a detailed manner, dissect the other standards and document my argument with references.

I think playing with anything below that standard is exposing yourself to undo risk of eye damage.

ANSI Z87.1 is not a complete specification for eyewear for use in our sport.

A brief synopsis: http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/ansiz8712003.html

ANSI Z87.1 includes a minimum specification for ballistic front angle protection which is quite high (1/4" steel ball at 250fps for goggles or 150fps for glasses) but offers no rigid specification on non frontal angle coverage.

Conversely ASTM F1776-10 is a very complete specification for eye protection for stopping paintballs. ASTM F1776-10 does not require the same high level of front angle ballistic protection as ANSI Z87.1, but ASTM F1776-10 does describe a very robust complement of angular protection.

For instance, ASTM F1776-10 contains a specification for a fitment test of test goggles to a few standardized mannequin heads. The heads are fired upon from numerous specified angles at the edges of the goggles to test how well the goggles prevent entry of large shell fragments into the ocular area. The test requires shots to strike from behind at the temple and upwards near the nose area. Goggles are required to not allow particles beyond a certain size to enter the ocular area to show that they can seal against shots from odd angles. Most goggles without the face mask cannot meet this specification due to the difficulty of sealing around the nose area. There is significant variation between players noses which confounds reliable sealing around the nose. The requirement for off angle strike protection is met by the addition of a facemask which reliably prevents shot fragments from traveling along the side of the nose.

A similar test requires shots the be fired from behind striking the left or right edge of the goggle to see if goggles could be jarred from the face with repeated strikes from behind. This test evaluates the efficacy of the strap for holding the goggles in place from several (something like 10) high energy hits from the side and rear.

The importance of non frontal angle protection cannot be understated. Forward angle strikes are relatively easy to stop. Polycarbonate which has not been embrittled by long UV exposure (old lenses become less crack resistant) can easily stop paintballs or airsoft projectiles. Much of the text in ASTM F1776-10 specification describes protection from odd angles as well as goggle retention which has unfortunately shown to be the most common cause of failure in eye protection in a long history of paintball.

A few interesting paintball accidents in history:

A player wearing a motorcycle helmet which easily met ballistic requirements (designed for rock strikes on the highway) was blinded when a shot entered the helmet from below impacting in the ocular area. The player was laying prone and took fire from behind which went straight up the open bottom of the helmet.

Players wearing goggles with no face mask and worn foam taking fire from a low angle (also laying prone) are exposed to risk of pellet or fragment entry beside the nose into the ocular area.

Players wearing glasses can have their glasses stripped off or jostled when backing into heavy shrubbery. Glasses with side shielding offer very little low or high angle coverage. Players eyes can be exposed to fire when laying prone or engaging opponents firing into or from elevated positions (2nd floor balconies or windows etc).

ASTM F1776-10 is a specification for shooting sport eye protection that is far more appropriate for airsoft than ANSI Z87.1. Heavy ballistic specifications are not necessary with our typical muzzle energies. Trading off a small degree of forward protection for a significant degree of off angle protection and retention provides a more complete specification for eye protection in our application.

ASTM F1776-10 is a recognized specification for paintball fields which means that insurance agencies will require adherence to it. Even if you think that your ANSI spec eyewear provides better forward angle protection, pball fields will lose their insurance coverage if they allow players to wear ANSI eyewear.

mil-dtl-43511d is an interesting specification:

http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/M...-43511D_15101/

It has a lot of focus on optical quality that I think isn't in ASTM F1776-10. The forward angle ballistic requirement is quite high, but I see little reference to retention requirements, or non forward angle protection. The anti scratch tests are interesting. I suspect they're not in ASTM F1776-10 because they might not make enough difference with players rubbing their sandy hands across the front. I also see no fog resistance specifications in MIL-DTL. IRC ASTM F1776-10 makes some attempt to specify a minimum fog resistance test.

It should be noted that ASTM F1776-10 is a PAINTBALL goggle specification. While passing it's ballistic tests will probably result in a lens strong enough for airsoft, ASTM F1776-10 does not address all of the issues of our projectiles. Some years ago, I attended an ASTM conference when it came to Toronto. An airsoft division was just starting up to address the needs for new regulation. Last I heard they were going to set out new regulations for airsoft eyewear. That was years ago though. I'm out of the loop.

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...highlight=astm

http://www.astm.org/COMMIT/SUBCOMMIT/F0827.htm

Ah that's too bad. They're starting their work on sub 1J airsoft. I'm not surprised. The biggest stakeholders attending the conference in '96 were Palco and Crossman who market a lot of lower energy stuff. I couldn't follow the conference around as it moved across America (no travel budget) and I couldn't drum up enough interest with other airsofters in the US to attend.

Perhaps things will change now that Spartan (US Classic Army distribution) and Palco have been bought by Cybergun. Cybergun has also acquired Innokatsu. If Cybergun gets more into high end airsoft in the US, they will have a vested interest in developing regulations for higher energy airsoft.

Cybergun/Palco already sell AEG's that shoot 380-400fps with a 0.20g BB FYI.

I kinda wish I could find out if motocross goggles were rated well enough. I have several pairs and I only by top of the line since I have taken several fist sized rocks to the goggles at high speed and with top range goggles it doesn't even hurt a bit. I know goofing off at the end of a wet day I didn't even have goggles on and got some gravel and mud in the eye and I rolled my ATV into a tree so I always make sure to have at least 4 pairs of goggles and 12 lenses with me.

All the MX and ski goggles I've seen have huge vents in the frame; great for moving air. Not great for stopping the ingress of a BB.

A rated lens is only part of the deal. If you duck your head down and get a snap shot into the brow of your goggle it will punch right through the foam and bounce around inside the frame.

Ski Goggles can be pretty thin. Atleast the ones I have.

PB Goggles aren't a biggy with me , personally as long as my eyes are somehow protected I'm happy. HOWEVER like it was mentioned before, until someone is hurt badly, PB fields will require PB goggles. In that case I believe that ballistic goggles still out perform PB goggles any day.

Here in the US, the reason so many fields require PB masks is simply because there is no "airsoft" insurance, just paintball. So the policy dictates paintball masks. Some field owners will be proactive and negotiate a different policy with the insurer, but because the market is so small, the larger insurers won't do that. We have one outfit here that has three fields. Two are insured as paintball fields and require full PB masks. The third has a different insurer and requires full seal goggles.

I also agree with the additional comfort of using a ballistic goggle. I have two sets of Revision Desert Locust goggles (I admit it) because of their marketing and how they show that they perform better than the mil standard (basically a 28 joule .2g BB strike.)

http://www.revisioneyewear.com/technology.html

Then again, I also have been wearing the bitter end lower face mask, and have just switched to the Brass Guard full face mask because I want to protect my teeth. We had two people get broken front teeth at OP Pine Plains this year.

Let's get real here. It is not hard to get good eye protection. 25$ Cdn for these:
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z...ke/Goggles.jpg

Ballistic grade, and fit over my glasses perfectly. Why would you ever risk becoming blind, when you can get good protection for low cost.

That thing looks like itll fog up like a bitch.

No Ventilation?

Their web site says that they are ISO9001 certified, nothing about MIL or ANSI certified, so "ballistic grade" really doesn't apply.

http://www.rothco.com/general/index....search/Rothco/

Remember that during the first gulf war, we wore whatever we could get our hands on. There wasn't any worry about complying with standards. We just wanted to keep the dust out of our eyes, so a lot of goggles that say or seem to be "issue" could be the same case.

I have done the same thing with abseil gear.

Back on Topic.
If i get more than 2 shots direct to the lens it is then retired. Thats why I bring an extra set to a game. Even if its a place where PB goggles are not needed they are still with me for the "what if" factor.

Yes changing the lens every 6-12mo is recommended also along with proper care and cleaning.

But did you know, as I found out last night. A siberian husky's teeth cant penetrate the lenses of ESS NVG Profile goggles. They may look like I took a shotgun to them, but no cracks.
+1 for properly rated eyewear. Id rather spend $120 on mil spec goggles then chance losing an eye.

A couple pics from earlier, first is ski/MX and second is ESS.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...n-ke/Smith.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p230/Dan-ke/ESS.jpg

Ummm ISO 9001 has nothing to do with the grade of the lense but how the company is run.... It's hard to explain but it's basically a quality control program for manufacturing company's to adhere to setup by an outside source.

I know this question may sound stupid, but are these goggles importable because ballistic armor is banned in Canada.

What? When did this happen?

I only wear ballistic approved goggles, if the field required PB goggles, I WILL NOT GO TO THE FIELD.

nvm, according to wikipedia it's only illegal in B.C.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest
I should of checked google first...

https://elite.smithoptics.com/otwTurbo.html

I'll be buying these.

Well i dont know much about what the quality of the ones im using aside from the fact that I shot my gun at 460fps with a .2 not an inch from it and not a scratch thats what I trust now to get a half mask...

Nice necro.

haha, those were the goggles I was wearing :D

PB goggles are good at certain times, but I believe that if you are wearing Ballistic goggles that should be more then fine, hell I'm fine with just ballistic glasses.

Wishing the thread a happy birthday?

ok what about mesh lensed goggles are they not reccomended ?

WHAT brand goggle are recomended for airsoft ??

i wear glasses would mesh goggle over prrescription glases work /safe ?
from new member don

Mesh goggles are usually not approved. As many outdoor games use bio bb which tend to chip when hit the mesh, and indoor games have stricter rules on goggles.

Invest a good pair of goggles with fan and/or with fog tech. Never too expensive to save your eyes from those flying bbs.

You're not going to find an indoor game in our area, and none of the game here "require" the use of paintball masks or goggles. The posts you see about that are mainly for venues that host both paintball and Airsoft. It's required for the their insurance policies.

At AAS for example we choose to wear ballistic rated rated safety/shooting glasses. Anyone is more than welcome to wear full face masks or whatever makes you most comfortable. But by choosing to wear safety glasses you give up the right to complain about getting hit in the face.

You want something good, especially if you need to wear prescription lenses under neath. Look into the ESS brand of goggles. They have a few models available and are well worth the $$.