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Oborous November 20th, 2009 18:13

Planning for a Large Event
 
So, what would you do to prepare for a large event? Such as the 200+ player events. I'm specifically thinking for the Staff level positions (overall Commander and Sub-commanders/Captains)

Oborous

Mr.Shiney November 20th, 2009 22:13

I think when planning a large event first you need to consider the terrain, time of year, and the types of scenarios you will be employing.

What will be the size of your event staff. What support will they need, and how will the players on the field be controlled.

Once you have made the considerations for the numbers of players, and how they will be separated in to various teams/units. Then I would consider roles or positions on the various teams.

Gridlock November 20th, 2009 22:24

They have events that big?

Man, I'd like to be part of that one day...

Outcast569 November 20th, 2009 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gridlock (Post 1108133)
They have events that big?

Man, I'd like to be part of that one day...

Claybank......

Darklen November 20th, 2009 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outcast569 (Post 1108152)
Claybank......

Claybank 2009 - 214 players + staff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Shiney (Post 1108128)
I think when planning a large event first you need to consider the terrain, time of year, and the types of scenarios you will be employing.

What will be the size of your event staff. What support will they need, and how will the players on the field be controlled.

Once you have made the considerations for the numbers of players, and how they will be separated in to various teams/units. Then I would consider roles or positions on the various teams.


I think he's asking about staff on the teams, not event staff. Planning a game of that scope and running is a bit of an undertaking from what I understand.

Brian McIlmoyle November 21st, 2009 00:34

Company sized ops
 
are rare.. I've commanded at 2 such events..

I ran with a HQ staff of

Myself, Signaler , 2Ic , and 4 security .. +Element commanders

I had three elements, with a Commander and 2ic in each element

Kimbo November 21st, 2009 02:50

Lots of volunteers.

Mr.Shiney November 21st, 2009 09:07

No, I do realize he is talking about On Field Player Command/Staff Positions. But in large events what is key is the control by the Directing Staff.

If you are attempting to provide a Player CP What Brian indicated is probably the best solution

CO, DCO, possibly and OPS O/NCO, Several Sigs, and a D/S Detachment for the HQ and its staff. Then within each Sub Unit of 15 to 30 Select an IC and 2IC for each.

Or you could nominate an overall Commander and let the team sort itself out.

Oborous November 21st, 2009 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Shiney (Post 1108324)
Or you could nominate on overall Commander and let the team sort itself out.

Personally, I disagree with nominating an overall commander. Either it's assigned by the event planner (ala Op Irene, where they bring in guests) or you volunteer.

But the question still is, planning as the Commander of one side, what do you need to look at? What points need to be covered off at a minimum, what are good to haves, what are nice to haves? What how do you organize a command structure that is organic enough to deal with airsofters that aren't in an enforced chain of command, where there is fiscal or legal reprocussions for not following orders... airsofters are all players and you can't asign political officers to shoot people that aren't following orders... as much as I would like to.

Mr.Shiney November 21st, 2009 13:51

When it comes to Nominating a Commander - the Event host would select those that they know would be up to the task. Sorry if I worded it to sound like have the players nominate or vote for.

As for a Manning/Tasking Slate

CO: 1
DCO: 1
Ops O/NCO: 1 to 4 - to handle the organization and running of the Unit CP, providing IntSum's to the CO/DCO, directly co-ordinate with sub unit IC's
Sigs NCO: 1 to 6 depends on the number of overall radio nets and lenght of the event
Defence/Security: 4 to 10 depends on the overal size of the HQ/CP Element.

As for individual sub units, that really depends. Some Teams, already have that. So you might be able to really on already in place structure.

But attempt to have One IC per 6 to 10 members.

As for not following orders or directions, I have had players also during events just start to do their own thing, not in line with the specific scenario. Not exactly sure how to prevent it. I guess it might be a combination of the Douche Factor and making a scenario environment that keeps people engaged.

I guess you could include a expected behaviour portion in the Game Thread

ie: This is a MilSim Themed event with a Command Structure and Reporting Chain in effect. All players are expected to fulfil and play their roles within the Command Chain. Those players that display a disregard for this and become unwilling/able to follow organized structure of this event will be asked to sit out for a portion or the remainder of the event without consideration of reimbursement.

Mikhail November 21st, 2009 14:07

I guess the question to ask, when dealing with 'lone wolves' going rogue, and doing their own thing is why is this happening?

I can easily see people getting assigned some less than exciting element of the team strategy, and getting pissed with some guard duty, or not seeing ANY action and wanting some...or just getting stuck in duties they are not suited for or just don't want to fulfill.

I have seen it happen before, with patient players, and less so...with imaginable differing results.

I have been proud of teammates and friends that stood the post despite boredom and cold...and have understood when others said 'f-- it' I am heading to the front'.

I must admit that if I take time off work, organize all the logistics to attend a big game, with all its inherent background costs, that I would feel that I have a say in seeing that I enjoy myself. Frankly, some folks use this as stress relief...meaning they may already be wound a little tight. So a bit of careful handling would go a long way.

Just trying to see it from the flip side for the moment. If these are all the reasons for 'disruptive game play' surely they can be handled via upfront communication before they sign up, and during the game.

I would suggest that the game host have some responsibility to 'find' a role for those not working with the 'plan of the day'. A little flexibility on both parts should see everyone tired and happy, with a minimum of douchbaggery.

Danke November 21st, 2009 14:13

For an event of that size I really think you need to put staff or actors in the command roles. Unless you have very large established teams who can be responsible for their own chain of command, or have one side that is a dis-organized rabble that needs no leaders.

Letting the teams pick the CO on the spot won't work. It's not a desirable task for most so you may not get the best leader in the group.

Forever_kaos November 21st, 2009 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Shiney (Post 1108425)

This is a MilSim Themed event with a Command Structure and Reporting Chain in effect. All players are expected to fulfil and play their roles within the Command Chain. Those players that display a disregard for this and become unwilling/able to follow organized structure of this event will be asked to sit out for a portion or the remainder of the event without consideration of reimbursement.

Screw that!
You refuse to follow orders I shoot your ass for treason!
:p hahaha (just kidding)

If you do get around to planning such an event, I wish you good luck!

Bandit November 21st, 2009 17:45

Having commands on board with the organizational staff would help in such large situations. They would be privy to scenario information and could help communicate this to players in order to keep them on task.

Also having the organizers set up and maintain a forum for such a large event is also important. It provides the organizationally minded to speak up, and for them to disseminate ideas to their teammates. Especially since for such an event to take place most players are from regionally disparate areas and have likely never played together.

As for lone wolves (individuals and squads) you can always count on them going to find a fire fight. Consider them suppressing fire or cannon fodder to allow the objective-focused squads to complete their tasks. The nice thing is that lone wolves always like to be told which direction the fight is in. I have no qualms about sending them into the thick of it! Maybe that is the Russian side of my tactics coming out. :)

Brian McIlmoyle November 22nd, 2009 00:11

The commander needs to have an effective battle plan .. and execute it.. the simpler the better.

Leaders right down to the squad level need to be capable and aggressive.

Players want structure .. and if you provide an effective structure most people will join with it.. and play within it

Lone wolves should be shot by both sides on sight... eventually they get tired of the spawn hike and join in.

They whine about "team Kill" but you should point out that if they were actually playing with the team they would not have been killed.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Oborous (Post 1108394)
Personally, I disagree with nominating an overall commander. Either it's assigned by the event planner (ala Op Irene, where they bring in guests) or you volunteer.

But the question still is, planning as the Commander of one side, what do you need to look at? What points need to be covered off at a minimum, what are good to haves, what are nice to haves? What how do you organize a command structure that is organic enough to deal with airsofters that aren't in an enforced chain of command, where there is fiscal or legal reprocussions for not following orders... airsofters are all players and you can't asign political officers to shoot people that aren't following orders... as much as I would like to.


Kimbo November 22nd, 2009 00:57

Picking the command structure 'the day of' sucks for everyone involved. They should be selected as far as possible in advance so they can have a plan on how command will be structured come game day.

scottyfox November 22nd, 2009 01:42

I've been trying to wrap my head around how the CF Leadership Institute can be of assistance to this thread and here are some thoughts.

Flexibility of command structure: I think that the only thing that games will have in common will be that there is a person or persons in command. Leadership must be adaptive to the team (direct vs indirect) and to circumstances.

Simplicity: Milsim is just that, simulation, and as a result, there is no way in hell that participants will have the training, education and professional development that is found in soldiers, sailors and airmen and women. There's no place in airsoft for the full Operational Planning Process, nor joint targeting and so on. Accordingly, it is a grave mistake to overthink planning and execution.

Situating yourself: Airsoft is played at the tactical level, with some improvisation and assumption on the operational and strategic level. Since there is no joint staff, no J2 Int or J5 Plans, most of the higher stuff is played out by the game admin (Kokanee and Brian come to mind as excellent examples of this). As a result, it is the role of the tactical commander (likely Capt) to organize his or her company to directly effect the fire and movement necessary to acheive his or her operational commander's (LCol, HQ not participating) aims of mass and maneuvre (the operational level).
In short, you dictate the fire and movement only, the rest is out of your control.

With that in mind, the Company commander, his senior NCM, and his platoon commanders (Lt) with their own senior NCM, divided up into sections/squads whatever (some Recce/ Sniper dets in there too). To keep things lean, the senior NCMs could act as right hand men and I don't see much use in DCOs, nor do I see much value in having Int O, or Sig Ops in airsoft. While I'm also not a huge fan of the separate radio guy in airsoft at the company command level, but I'm sure whoever does it has their reasons.

Problem: That's alot of leaders. But the placement of the staff is very important. An institutional leader (the Coy OC) should select his small team leaders based on their ability to follow orders and their soldiering skills (orienteering, communications etc) while Platoon commanders and the Coy OC himself, should focus on their ability to implement the commander's guidance through effective interpersonal skills and team management. As far as arriving at that plan, organizational flexibility: maybe Coy OC gets together a fake Operational level staff with a J2 and a J5 and does the stuff that I outlined in "Operational Planning and you..."

In a perfect world:
Squad leader...................Platoon Leader................................Company OC
Linear thinking -----------------------------> Creative thinking, agility, adaptability
Soldiering ----------------------------------> Organization, people skills, inspiration etc

Brian McIlmoyle November 22nd, 2009 23:49

Ill Add
 
To what Scottyfox said

All AS ops are tactical in their nature..

Where many commanders fall down is widening the scope beyond their ability to control.

Company sized operations in airsoft in Canada are very rare.. consequently few ever get any practice keeping 100 people on task.

Simple structures and simple tactics will have greater success than complex movements.

Airsofters tend to have the attention spans of 3 year olds ... and getting groups of them moving in any one direction akin to herding cats. In these situations effective leaders can always make the difference.

The biggest mistake I have seen with many people who Fancy themselves leaders make is getting caught up in individual combat while forgetting that they need to be directing fire and movement... many engagements grind to a halt and devolve to at range plinking.

The company Commander hasn't a hope of execution of any action if his section commanders can't engage.. win and move on.

I know lots of guys that could be capable Jr leaders and have a decisive effect on the field if they just stood up and said something.

Oborous November 23rd, 2009 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle (Post 1109264)
Where many commanders fall down is widening the scope beyond their ability to control.

Company sized operations in airsoft in Canada are very rare.. consequently few ever get any practice keeping 100 people on task.

Airsofters tend to have the attention spans of 3 year olds ... and getting groups of them moving in any one direction akin to herding cats. In these situations effective leaders can always make the difference.

The company Commander hasn't a hope of execution of any action if his section commanders can't engage.. win and move on.

I know lots of guys that could be capable Jr leaders and have a decisive effect on the field if they just stood up and said something.

With large games being rare and few opprotunities to do planning and execution, how can we build this thread as a 'Huh, I'll think about it".

I've also seen that the Jr Leaders need to be decisive (as you stated), but how many of them actually have that drive to -be- decisive. So often they're wishy washy in asking their people to do things, sometimes a good yelling is what's needed.

Oborous November 23rd, 2009 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Shiney (Post 1108425)
When it comes to Nominating a Commander - the Event host would select those that they know would be up to the task. Sorry if I worded it to sound like have the players nominate or vote for.

No worries, the issue is that I've seen large events where the commanders are nominated. It takes a long time to actually build concensus to elect a Commander. You've lost half your development time to nominations, and then there are numerous threads on a variety of tactics or proceedures and trying to sort the wheat from the chaff and build a concise tactical plan that players & Jr Leaders can -find- then becomes a challenge for all involved.

Brian McIlmoyle November 23rd, 2009 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oborous (Post 1109497)
With large games being rare and few opprotunities to do planning and execution, how can we build this thread as a 'Huh, I'll think about it".

I've also seen that the Jr Leaders need to be decisive (as you stated), but how many of them actually have that drive to -be- decisive. So often they're wishy washy in asking their people to do things, sometimes a good yelling is what's needed.

Leadership is not about being loud.. and yelling .. it's about knowing when to be loud.. and when to yell.. and when not to.

The issue is that a large part of effective leadership has to do with trust.. if you have just met someone today... it's not that easy to subject yourself to their will .. particularly if you don't have to.

I've seen lots of games where everyone stands around the "commander" nodding and agreeing to a course of action then as soon as they are out of sight saying "screw that.. lets go get some action"

Most Airsofters are not diciplied enough to be content with tasks as assigned.. they came to "play" and "playing" means running around shooting stuff,, not sitting in defense watching a defined arc of fire.

From an airsoft standpoint a big part of the leader's job ( which simply does not exist in RW ) is ensuring that everyone has a good game and they enjoy themselves.. and seeing that tasks perceived as "better" are shared fairly.
Often rotating people out of tasks will reduce operational effectvness.. but in AS sense your success as a leader has a lot to do with the "fun quotient" experienced by the players , Obviously a perception of "winning" games goes a long way to people's perception of fun.. Being on the "winning" team is fun even if what you ended up doing may have been less fun.

MillerBRo November 23rd, 2009 18:44

What we had to do on our sim days is assign rank- people who stay on task and play within the spirit of the mission were promoted and the fuck ups who screwed around or were not team players were not. After a season we now have a list of players that we can rely on to work as an effective 'Blue' team, good players and leaders who follow orders and commands- we also have a list of people who make great 'untrained' rebels and insurgents who dont listen to a damm thing and can be counted on to play in a chaotic and untrained fashion lol.

Azathoth November 25th, 2009 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle (Post 1109517)
Leadership is not about being loud.. and yelling .. it's about knowing when to be loud.. and when to yell.. and when not to.

The issue is that a large part of effective leadership has to do with trust.. if you have just met someone today... it's not that easy to subject yourself to their will .. particularly if you don't have to.

I've seen lots of games where everyone stands around the "commander" nodding and agreeing to a course of action then as soon as they are out of sight saying "screw that.. lets go get some action"

Most Airsofters are not diciplied enough to be content with tasks as assigned.. they came to "play" and "playing" means running around shooting stuff,, not sitting in defense watching a defined arc of fire.

From an airsoft standpoint a big part of the leader's job ( which simply does not exist in RW ) is ensuring that everyone has a good game and they enjoy themselves.. and seeing that tasks perceived as "better" are shared fairly.
Often rotating people out of tasks will reduce operational effectvness.. but in AS sense your success as a leader has a lot to do with the "fun quotient" experienced by the players , Obviously a perception of "winning" games goes a long way to people's perception of fun.. Being on the "winning" team is fun even if what you ended up doing may have been less fun.

Something silly to add. Leadership is not about how competent or organized you are. Having the Best organization and plans is not effective leadership being competent, walking the talk are two of the many factors of effective leadership.

Airsoft is not RW, it is more like a team sport football or soccer. When you are in the championship game everyone on the team wants ice time. You need to rotate people around and make sure that people have a crack being part of the 'team'

Oborous November 26th, 2009 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azathoth (Post 1110523)
When you are in the championship game everyone on the team wants ice time. You need to rotate people around and make sure that people have a crack being part of the 'team'

So, how do you rotate units around when units don't follow orders?

The best that I can figure is hope that the game has mulitiple scenarios and have people on the 'front' for one scenario, then in 'guard' for a different scenario.

Now, I just have to figure out how the elite units (i.e. actually have a structure, obey orders, and are goal orientated) need to figure into this.

Oborous

FOX_111 November 26th, 2009 13:49

I think a good aproach for airsoft would be the one used by Mujahadeen commanders in the 1970 Afghan war with the russian.

Since most of the mujahadeen where farmers and other jihadist, all they wanted was some trigger time on the infidels. They did not want to participate in long, complex operations. And keeping them organised and in position was as complex as herding cats.

So they kept it simple. With limited comm, they organised simple but effective groupes that each had simple orders and erea of activity.

To study their SOP, I highly recommand the book: Afghan guerrilla warfare, by Ali Ahmad Jalali and Lester W. Grau. Very detailled battle report with maps and commentary by the person involved in the command of each battle, when available.

I use some of it's principle when organising milsim with people not part of team that are not cohesive on their own.

Also, having team releave other team on boring but essencial mission is a big plus. It allow a team on Surveillance to have some trigger time, it make some movement on the field for the opfor to respond, and it create a momentum of action. + it keep moral high.

Moral is something rarely taken care off in airsoft. When a team is successfull on it's ennemy, the ennemy moral get low, for real. And the bitching start, and the chairsofters start to camp in the base, chatting about their newly aquired musle break that is sooooo nice... A good CO will notice this shift in morale and exploite it. Either by attacking demoralised troop to gain more gorund or objective, or to send demoralised troop on candy mission with rapid and easy success.

Oborous November 26th, 2009 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOX_111 (Post 1111435)
I highly recommand the book: Afghan guerrilla warfare, by Ali Ahmad Jalali and Lester W. Grau. Very detailled battle report with maps and commentary by the person involved in the command of each battle, when available.

This book? Just double checking, because I agree with your analysis. And I like your term "Candy Mission". I think I'm going to create a book thread...

Danke November 26th, 2009 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOX_111 (Post 1111435)
Moral is something rarely taken care off in airsoft. When a team is successfull on it's ennemy, the ennemy moral get low, for real. And the bitching start, and the chairsofters start to camp in the base, chatting about their newly aquired musle break that is sooooo nice... A good CO will notice this shift in morale and exploite it. Either by attacking demoralised troop to gain more gorund or objective, or to send demoralised troop on candy mission with rapid and easy success.

I was at a game like that over the summer (and it had self nominated CO's which is as noted not a good idea).

Team A and B spent the most of the morning bumping each other and then finally settled into a grinding shootout with A surrounding B's defensive position. After some time A started to feel the spirit of the game wasn't being followed and complaints started.

The organizers called a break and split the groups up. After the break most of A stayed in the safe area while B re-occupied their base.

B then waited for A to show up and re-initiate the festivities to no avail; B then picked up en masse and went looking for A. At this point the remaining A players, infiltrated the B base, snatched the VIP, and then transported him to their base and ran out the clock.

One lesson from that was that a team with radio net in a big event can make all the difference even when out gunned.

As an aside this is not a poke at the CO of Team A. He was about the youngest, greenest guy in the group it appeared and he was picked by the group as no one wanted to the CO (myself included).

FOX_111 November 26th, 2009 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oborous (Post 1111494)
This book? Just double checking, because I agree with your analysis. And I like your term "Candy Mission". I think I'm going to create a book thread...

That's the one!


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