Investigating BioVALs BB Claims

[Scarecrow]

Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 12:02:12 -0400
From: "Utigard Kathy EDA UTK" <Kathy.Utigard@eda.admin.ch>
To: <jay@acsl.com>
Subject: Levante Labs


Hi Jay,

As discussed over the phone.

http://www.zefix.ch/info/eng/TI501.htm

Please let me know if you require more information.

With kind regards,

Kathy Utigard
Consulate General of Switzerland
154 University Avenue, Suite 601
Toronto, ON M5H 3Y9, Canada
Phone: +1 416 593 5371, ext 227
Fax: +1 416 593 5083
Kathy.Utigard@eda.admin.ch
www.eda.admin.ch/canada

This e-mail may contain trade secrets or privileged, undisclosed or otherwise confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any review, copying or distribution of it is strictly prohibited. Please inform us immediately and destroy the original transmittal. Thank you for your cooperation.

[Porkchop]

The only thing you are going to find at the Levante Labs address ( beside a hairdresser ) is a Treuhand gesellschaft ( fiduciary company) called Ulrich Willi. I suspect that they handle all the traffic for Levante Labs.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by Porkchop

The only thing you are going to find at the Levante Labs address ( beside a hairdresser ) is a Treuhand gesellschaft ( fiduciary company) called Ulrich Willi. I suspect that they handle all the traffic for Levante Labs.

Any suggestion as to how to validate Levante Lab's existence and credentials beyond that? I assume a "fiduciary company" is some sort of lawyer or banking concern?

Levante Labs should still come up as a company unless its a pseudonym. But no credible scientific study would that would be published under a pseudonym would be taken seriously as scientific.

I found a site that describes this issue and the process I am following:

http://www.fontysmediatheek.nl/wiki/...ibility_source

How to evaluate credibility source

We are constantly surrounded by information, and it isn't always easy to know which sources to trust. Being able to evaluate the credibility of information is an important skill used in school, work, and day-to-day life. With so much advertising, controversy, and blogging going on, how do you sift through the chaff and cut to the chase?

Steps

1. Think about how reliable you need the information to be. Everyone has different standards for credibility, and often this depends on how the information is going to be applied. If you're writing an academic paper in a university setting, for example, you need to be especially strict about sources. If you're looking for information on how to unclog your toilet, a comprehensive Internet search might suffice. If your project falls somewhere in the middle, such as if you're making a presentation at work or creating a website, it's important to evaluate sources and make a judgment call as to whether you should include the information and if so, how it should be presented.
2. Consider the medium with which you are working. Generally, the more that is invested into the creation and publishing of the material, the more likely you are to find reliable information. For example, printed material has a higher cost of production than an Internet blog, which anyone can publish for free. A peer-reviewed journal is considered the most reliable source because each article must undergo a rigorous review process, with many professional reviewers involved. This isn't to say that you should completely avoid Internet sources (a blog published by a distinguished scientist commenting on a study could be useful) nor should you immediately trust a well-researched publication (material sponsored by large corporations, for example, can be highly biased). Take everything with a grain of salt.
   • Research the author. A source is more credible if written by someone with a degree or other credentials in the subject of interest. If no author or organization is named, the source will not be viewed as very credible. Some questions that you should ask about the author are:
     • Where does the author work?
     • If the author is affiliated with a reputable institution or organization, what are its values and goals?
     • What is his or her educational background?
     • What other works has the author published?
     • What experience does the author have?
     • Has this author been cited as a source by other scholars or experts in the field?
   • Check the date. Find out when the source was published or revised. In some subject areas, such as the sciences, having current sources is essential; but in other fields, like the humanities, including older material is critical.[1] It's also possible that you're looking at an older version of the source, and an updated one has since been published. Check with a scholarly database for academic sources (or an online bookstore for popular sources) to see if a more recent version is available. If so, not only should you find it, but you can also feel more confident about the source--the more printings or editions, the more reliable the information.
   • Investigate the publisher. If the publisher is a university press, the source is likely to be scholarly.
   • Determine the intended audience. Scan the preface, table of contents, index, abstract, and the first few paragraphs of the article or of a few chapters. Is the tone, depth, and breadth appropriate for your project? Using a source that is too specialized for your needs may lead you to misinterpret the information given, which is just as hurtful to your own credibility as using an unreliable source.
   • Check the reviews. Find reviews for the source. In the US, you can check Book Review Index, Book Review Digest, Periodical Abstracts. If the book is aimed at a layperson, check reviews online and see how and why others criticized the source. If there is significant controversy surrounding the validity of the source, you may wish to avoid using it, or examine it further with a skeptical eye.
   • Evaluate the source's sources. Citing other reliable sources is a sign of credibility. It is, however, sometimes necessary to verify that the other sources also show a pattern of credibility and are used in context.
   • Identify bias. If the source's author is known to be emotionally or financially connected with the subject, be aware that the source may not fairly represent all views. Sometimes research is necessary to determine relationships that indicate the possibility of bias.
   • Be conscious of wording that indicates judgment. Conclusions that describe something as "bad or good" or "right or wrong" should be examined. It is more appropriate to compare something to an objective standard than to label it with words that represent abstract concepts. Take for example, "...these and other despicable acts..." vs. "...these and other illegal acts...". The latter describes the acts in terms of the law (an objective source, somewhat) whereas the first example judges the actions according to the author's own belief of what is a despicable act.
   • Evaluate Consistency. Sources that apply different standards to those who agree and disagree with them are suspect. If your source praises one politician for "changing to meet the needs of his constituency", but then criticizes an opposing politician for "changing his position with opinion polls", it is likely that the source is biased.
   • Investigate the financial or funding sources for sponsored research. Determine the sources of funding for the study conducted to get an idea of the potential influences on the study. Various sources of funding can sway the information presented or the way a study is conducted in order to align with their own agendas.
   Tips
   
   
   1. The more radical the ideas presented in the source (in comparison to other sources on the same subject) the more carefully you should scrutinize it. Don't dismiss it completely; Gregor Mendel's work was cited only three times, criticized, and ignored for 35 years before his discoveries in genetics were recognized in the field of science.[3]
   2. If a source doesn't pass the above guidelines, it doesn't mean that the information contained within is false. It just means that it doesn't carry as much weight in compelling someone to believe it.
   3. Beware of using Wikipedia as a source for academic or journalistic writing. While a scientific study showed that Wikipedia is as accurate as professionally generated enclyclopedias[4], it is generally considered not credible enough for use in articles where accuracy is of extreme importance, since anyone can edit nearly any of the entries.

[MikeG]

I'm the author of the blog article posted earlier. My calculations in that report were very rough, I'll admit. However, the properties of these bbs so closely match that of glass, it's very hard for me to believe that they are not.

Glass or not, they still have the dangerous properties of it. When shattered, the shards are absolutely razor sharp. They will easily cut you if not handled with care. This is especially of concern where games occur in completely 'hard' environments like at my local CQB arena. If BBs were to shatter there, it is quite likely that players could be injured as many like to 'slide' along the linoleum floors. I have not yet conducted scientific impact tests to determine how hard an impact is required to shatter the BBBMAX.





I know these BBs are very well liked for accuracy and consistency among the players that use them, which is why threads like these tend to become controversial. However my feeling is that in airsoft, player safety needs to always be put above competitiveness.

I tried the materials search at MatWeb mentioned earlier with the parameters of:
Melting Point: 500C to 1800C
Density: 2.35g/cc to 2.45g/cc
and the only result I came up with was this glass:
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataShe...eddd3bf252322b

It is still possible that the BBs could be made up of a composite of other materials that do not fit into the parameters I searched for, but the simplest explanation is still that they are made of some type of glass.

[Easy]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

I've had an interesting call back from the Swiss Consular Mission in Toronto this morning. Spoke with a very nice lady (named "Kathy") with a Swiss accent who went through the business registries and found no registration for a "Levante Labs" at the address indicated in the report, or in their registry country wide.

She is sending me some additional information via email regarding the local business registry she used and is going to get me into contact with a trade representative to look into it further in case her registry is incomplete. I asked her if it was possible that a registered business would not be in her listing and she was doubtful but if it is not, it would be because it was registered very recently (ie: last 60 days) and that's why she wants to follow up with the trade representative who would have access to more detailed information. She was very helpful and very "open" despite Easy's earlier worries about the secretiveness of the Swiss (lol). I wasn't arrested or imprisoned, and am still happily sitting at home enjoying a cup of tea.

As usual this information is just that, information as I gather it, and in of itself, is not conclusive as of yet. I will keep you informed.

You requested that i only post if i have facts. Well here are the facts:

---------
FACT 1
----------
There are 5 types of companies that can be formed in Switzerland:
(1) Single Owner Business.
(2) General Partnership.
(3) Limited Liability Company.
(4) Limited Share Corporation.
(5) Branch.

HERE IS THE CLINCHER - Type (1) Single Ownership Business DOES NOT require entry into the Commercial Registry and DOES NOT require a VAT number to operate. So your Consular investigation may very well turn up nothing.

---------
FACT 2
---------
The address provided by Levante Labs is NOT THEIR OWN but that of their Fiduciary Representative. A Swiss Fiduciary can represent both Swiss and Foreign companies. This means Levante Labs may very well be incorporated outside of Switzerland.

----------
FACT 3
---------
A Fiduciary Representative is a legal entity and usually has a Federal License to operate.

-------
FACT 4
-------
Levante Labs may be the trade mark owned by another entity (Swiss or Foreign) and not the actual name of the company.

Write to the Fiduciary Representative of Levante Labs and ask if this company exists. Otherwise just a dead end

… enjoy your tea.

[MikeG]

Since we're now talking about the trademarks, I did a couple of searches for "Levante" on the websites of both the US Patent & Trademark Office and Trademarks and Design Resigtration Office of the EU and turned up no relevant results.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?...004:964khs.1.1
http://www.oami.europa.eu/CTMOnline/...en_SearchBasic

[Easy]

Originally Posted by MikeG

I tried the materials search at MatWeb mentioned earlier with the parameters of:
Melting Point: 500C to 1800C
Density: 2.35g/cc to 2.45g/cc
and the only result I came up with was this glass:
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataShe...eddd3bf252322b

It is still possible that the BBs could be made up of a composite of other materials that do not fit into the parameters I searched for, but the simplest explanation is still that they are made of some type of glass.

Mike a lot of material roughly fit those densities.
http://www.engineering.uiowa.edu/~cf...bles/1-86B.pdf

[Easy]

Originally Posted by MikeG

Since we're now talking about the trademarks, I did a couple of searches for "Levante" on the websites of both the US Patent & Trademark Office and Trademarks and Design Resigtration Office of the EU and turned up no relevant results.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?...004:964khs.1.1
http://www.oami.europa.eu/CTMOnline/...en_SearchBasic

We have also tried this route. Unfortunately trade marks need not be registered.

[MikeG]

Originally Posted by Easy

Mike a lot of material roughly fit those densities.
http://www.engineering.uiowa.edu/~cf...bles/1-86B.pdf

Of course, but do they also match the melting point and other parameters? If you can propose a specific material that does, I'd be interested to see it. So far I've found data on two types of glass that at least roughly match the parameters we're looking for.

[Easy]

Originally Posted by MikeG

Of course, but do they also match the melting point and other parameters? If you can propose a specific material that does, I'd be interested to see it. So far I've found data on two types of glass that at least roughly match the parameters we're looking for.

Instead of using generic terms such as “glass” perhaps we should be investigating transparent ceramics and their derivatives.

I have found three, all are used in optics and all are transparent:

Aluminum oxynitride.
Magnesium aluminate spinel.
Single crystal aluminum oxide.

There are 100s of industrial ceramics and resins that with a little mixing to make them cheaper can fit the bill.

Finding a perfect fit may be impossible since any number of "ingredients" may be thrown into the mix to make them affordable.

Added to the fray are bioactive and biodegradable ceramics with high mechanical strength.

Just cause its transparent doesn't mean its window glass. I have never seen window glass resist in a vice. In fact it is very difficult to shatter the BBBMAX and when it does it is more powder than what we would refer to as common glass.

I think BIOVAL have adopted a novel material and processed it in such a way as to make it affordable.

[Easy]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

[*][FONT=Arial Narrow]Identify bias. If the source's author is known to be emotionally or financially connected with the subject, be aware that the source may not fairly represent all views. Sometimes research is necessary to determine relationships that indicate the possibility of bias.

Scarecrow since you are the owner of BB Bastard, should we apply these criteria when confronted with your research and/or results?

[MikeG]

Originally Posted by Easy

Scarecrow since you are the owner of BB Bastard, should we apply these criteria when confronted with your research and/or results?

Let's not turn this into trolling or a flamewar. I believe Scarecrow is trying to decide whether he should sell this particular line of BBs.

Anyway, do we really care about the exact makeup of the BBBMAX? I think general safety is the issue - which will have to be proved out with physical tests.

Either way, the three ceramics you listed are nowhere near the same density of the BBBMAX (2.4 g/cc):

Aluminum oxynitride - 3.688 g/cm³ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride)
Magnesium aluminate spinel - 3.60 g/cc (http://www.matweb.com/search/DataShe...f3da602d4ad717)
Single crystal aluminum oxide - 3.98 g/cc (http://www.matweb.com/search/DataShe...e0155ee448d6f0)

[Azathoth]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Thanks, this is helpful information.

To clarify the costing, the shipping was $14 USD, so the product itself was $24, but that was 2000. I think the product is just beginning to get into the North American supply chain and I think at the beginning unless BioVAL has pricing restrictions, you might seem some profit taking on initial sales. Pretty normal for a premium product that is in high demand and low supply.

Converted to Canadian dollars my final landed cost is $49 CAD.

,

I purchased 2 cases of this product (10 bags) count at a total cost of 250CDN shipped to my door per case.

I don't know which retailer you purchsed your BBBmax's from but the MSRP for 10 bags should be in the neighbouhood of 200-230 USD.

They have been in the US supply chain for a little over 1 yr now. if anything profit taking has been due to the explosion of demand

[Easy]

Originally Posted by MikeG

Let's not turn this into trolling or a flamewar. I believe Scarecrow is trying to decide whether he should sell this particular line of BBs.

Anyway, do we really care about the exact makeup of the BBBMAX? I think general safety is the issue - which will have to be proved out with physical tests.

Either way, the three ceramics you listed are nowhere near the same density of the BBBMAX (2.4 g/cc):

Aluminum oxynitride - 3.688 g/cm³ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride)
Magnesium aluminate spinel - 3.60 g/cc (http://www.matweb.com/search/DataShe...f3da602d4ad717)
Single crystal aluminum oxide - 3.98 g/cc (http://www.matweb.com/search/DataShe...e0155ee448d6f0)

Yes i have seen the their densities. That's what i could find. Is it possible to mix an ingredient that would reduce their densities during the manufacturing process?

[Easy]

Originally Posted by Azathoth

,

I purchased 2 cases of this product (10 bags) count at a total cost of 250CDN shipped to my door per case.

I don't know which retailer you purchsed your BBBmax's from but the MSRP for 10 bags should be in the neighbouhood of 200-230 USD.

They have been in the US supply chain for a little over 1 yr now. if anything profit taking has been due to the explosion of demand

I have been wondering the same thing. Perhaps Scarecrow has not bought any BBBMAX. There are other similar products. Try at http://www.begadishop.com/catalog/in...p?cPath=21_208 he sells glass bbs.