IR Lasers & DBAL's at games.

[Kozzie]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Since you guys have already banned lasers on the field in your minds, there's no use arguing. So give me an alternative to using an IR laser that is as accurate and useful to aim with my NVD.

You sound like some entitled teenager. It's not anyone's responsibility to provide you with an alternative, it's your responsibility to not endanger your fellow player's safety. The real question here is why do you feel you have the right to use something that can ruin someone's eyesight to which they have no defence.

Chris is right, I hope this brings awareness to your local players about what you're using.

[Slow]

This is quite funny, especially since you play with underage players Cactus.

[Cico]

Now I'm going to pose this as an option from my perspective as a G&P Dbal owner that didnt relize when he bought it that the laser is not rated safe. If i was to come to the game and use my Dbal in the iluminator finction with the focus being down to a minimal setting(looking like a laser) would that constitue disregard for the rules as I am not using the laser function? I am more than willing to submit myself to the testing with the device that C3SK has to vefiy intensity prior to use as I do not want to knowingly cause eye injury. Now the only issue in my doing the above that i see arising is the he said she said of wether or not I am on the laser setting as the illimunotor and designator are housed in the same box. If i was on the flipside of this I would alow this to happen with a seasoned and trustworth player that I/the community have played along side with in the past with no other issues.

[z0ng]

The light meter I have is not currently available for rent but I don't mind bringing it out to games to help gauge what the output strength is of a device at 850nm wavelength.

As I explained in my previous post a light meter measuring a specific wavelength is not a reliable means of declaring a laser eye-safe. It does not tell you what the operating wavelength of the laser is so you might be getting an inaccurate reading. Before I would approve an untrusted laser for use I would test it first on a spectrum analyzer to see what the peak wavelenth is and how powerful the output is at that frequency.

For these DBAL clones for instance, can anyone answer the following questions:

Is the peak wavelength emitted by the laser 850nm?
What is the spectral width of the laser?

Think of a radio for instance, if you tune near the station you start picking up the signal but at a lower strength. As you tune to the exact center frequency of the station you see the full strength. This is a similar concept, the light meter is set for 850nm, but the laser's peak wavelength (or center frequency) could be 900nm, the light meter measuring at 850nm at this point will give a value that is below the actual output power of the 900nm laser. This value would be either larger or smaller depending on the spectral width of the laser.

-------------

In short, using light meters alone to measure the strength of an unknown laser is not sufficient evidence to deem the laser eye-safe.

[c3sk]

Is the illuminator on the g&p dbal a defocused laser?

[Derpystronk]

Originally Posted by c3sk

Is the illuminator on the g&p dbal a defocused laser?

I spent some time with one and I'm willing to say that it's a defocused laser. It also focuses right back down to a dot that is brighter than the normal IR dot on the unit.

[c3sk]

Originally Posted by Deltastone

I spent some time with one and I'm willing to say that it's a defocused laser. It also focuses right back down to a dot that is brighter than the normal IR dot on the unit.

PEQ-15, PEQ-2, and other ATPIAL Illuminators are eye safe out past 27 meters in training mode, within 27 meters there is an ocular hazard risk. It's still a Class 3A, and requires direct contact with the eye for over two minutes to cause serious damage to the retina.

So, using the dbal's illuminator, focused. could be causing eye damage to your target. Defocused is going to be safer (depending on the range)

I just wouldn't chance it to be honest.
Just save up the money and buy the eye safe lightsabers
Then you don't need to worry about melting someone's retinas. lol


Edit, forgot to mention:
I remember at Shallow Lake 2, I was beamed in the face. I thought it was a designator, but a defocused beam would make much more sense considering I was able to see the focal point of the device. User obviously wasn't aiming at my face, but it probably ended up there since I hit the dirt and went prone. I was wearing my nods and thus my eyes were nice and protected, and of course my natural reaction was to look away.

There was no damage done to anything, so its all good. At that range I doubt it would have done anything, especially considering it was quite defocused.

This is pretty much what you're dealing with.

[FirestormX]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

And some people have been shot in the eye with BBs, so you think we should stop shooting BBs at eachother? lol

The problem is that people are able to wear protective eyewear that are supposed to stop the BBs. We don't wear anything meant to keep IR lasers out of our eyes.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Besides, I've employed and seen employed some things that are FAR more dangerous than IR lasers at airsoft games with no complaints... At least when I was using dangerous stuff I explained the risk to everyone

I've seen you around ASC long enough to know that you should know people don't like the attitude of "no one complained, so what's the problem?"
I can see your point of "I'm responsible with it", and I'd probably want to be doing the same. I'm not trying to attack you, but I'm surprised to see you post something like this.

Edit: Crap, there were two more pages of discussion I missed. Disregard this I suppose. =/

[ShelledPants]

Originally Posted by Cico

Now I'm going to pose this as an option from my perspective as a G&P Dbal owner that didnt relize when he bought it that the laser is not rated safe.

If i was to come to the game and use my Dbal in the iluminator finction with the focus being down to a minimal setting(looking like a laser) would that constitue disregard for the rules as I am not using the laser function?

I am more than willing to submit myself to the testing with the device that C3SK has to vefiy intensity prior to use as I do not want to knowingly cause eye injury.

Now the only issue in my doing the above that i see arising is the he said she said of wether or not I am on the laser setting as the illimunotor and designator are housed in the same box. If i was on the flipside of this I would alow this to happen with a seasoned and trustworth player that I/the community have played along side with in the past with no other issues.

The bolded above is really important, so I'm going to answer this as it was passed over by everyone else.

It is NOT the game hosts' job to determine if an individual's equipment is safe for use.

It is also NOT ok to "clear" knock off equipment because a tool we use can determine it's output. It could be a fluke. It could be low based on unforeseen variables.

If the device does not have official documentation about eye safety that can be checked, it should not be shone at any human or animal.

We used the tool z0ng brought out to get an idea what these devices with documentation are outputting, and it fell within our expected range. Which is great. We can also measure the knock off kit. But it does not make the knock off kit safe if it falls within the ranges of safety. We do not know enough about the laser's to be screwing around with other people's eyes.

I cannot stress this enough. Please do not use fake lasers at games.

(Cico, this is not aimed at you, I know I sound a little course here, but I really need to bang this home, I see fake lasers all the time and I've been hit with green lasers... not a fun experience.)

[bean]

http://shop.rampartcorp.com/category_s/1840.htm nuff said

[Derpystronk]

Hold up hold up... Did you just link me to a site that is based in Canada and that may or may not have IR Lasers to sell me as a civilian?

Bean. I love you.

[pugs144]

He did and they will.

[mmmken]

Originally Posted by Deltastone

Hold up hold up... Did you just link me to a site that is based in Canada and that may or may not have IR Lasers to sell me as a civilian?

Bean. I love you.

Rampart posted this a few days ago on CGN. Basically it includes a $300 non-refundable paperwork fee that they charge with no guarantee that it'll be approved. Should the export application be declined, there goes your $300.

Risky and very pricey. Although Rampart isn't making any money on the $300 (it goes to the US Gov't), I'm not sure I'm convinced.

[Derpystronk]

Originally Posted by mmmken

Rampart posted this a few days ago on CGN. Basically it includes a $300 non-refundable paperwork fee that they charge with no guarantee that it'll be approved. Should the export application be declined, there goes your $300.

Risky and very pricey. Although Rampart isn't making any money on the $300 (it goes to the US Gov't), I'm not sure I'm convinced.

I would say they wouldn't even offer it unless DoD / DHS / whatever is cool with it. As long as you don't really have a pretty prejudice-y last name or are on some sort of denied persons list I would expect you to clear the paperwork?

Yeah, it's still a risk... But if the US Government was going to deny every application why would a company even offer it?

[FlyGuy]

For the lucky few of us PEQ-15 users out there...

Depending upon who's data sheet you read, the L3/Insight ATPIAL AN/PEQ-15's IR-lo setting is either 0.7 mW or 0.6 mW which means it would be considered Class 1, or on the very low end of Class 3a. I've seen it listed both ways on technical data sheets so it's that close. Either way however, the low-power lockout ensures a real-deal PEQ-15 IR laser remains in this regime at all times and is considered eye-safe under normal circumstances. (ie. Normal means avoiding prolonged continuous direct exposure...key words being "prolonged", "continuous" and "direct")

For everyone else...

To use anything else but a stamped/certified real-deal Class 1 or 3a laser emitter (see Bean's post above) means you will be using it alone in the privacy of your own home and not on any airsoft field. Though I don't speak for game hosts, I would hope that if caught, failure to comply with this necessary safety measure would grant you an immediate and indefinite ejection/ban from games, a public shaming here on ASC, and possibly further sanction. Eye safety is serious $hit people so give it the respect it deserves!

Now save your pesos and go buy from Rampart and be safe...


'Fly