IR Lasers & DBAL's at games.

[Danke]

I"m sure I'll hear about that enforcement blitz on the news. If they catch him I bet the driver's name is Deiter.

[Metalsynth]

So what basically people are saying from what I've heard from the beginning is that the solution would be to have an equivalent of a chrony for lasers...

Until we see that day, lasers are still banned at my events.

[Viperfish]

Originally Posted by Metalsynth

So what basically people are saying from what I've heard from the beginning is that the solution would be to have an equivalent of a chrony for lasers...

Until we see that day, lasers are still banned at my events.

Sort of but not really.

Look at it this way, at many of the big games when you chrony your gun they will wright down the fps on your wrist band and on the sign in sheet.

Real class 1 lasers will come with FDA paperwork. Basically it's a sheet that says that they already did the test for you. So it's like having your lasers fps on your wrist band

See a laser on the feild, ask to see there papers. No papers no laser.

If you drive without a driver's licence you get a ticket, simple as that. Lasers are basically the same way. Only ppl who won't have this are the guys with clone lasers.

[Metalsynth]

Originally Posted by Viperfish

See a laser on the feild, ask to see there papers. No papers no laser.

If you drive without a driver's licence you get a ticket, simple as that. Lasers are basically the same way. Only ppl who won't have this are the guys with clone lasers.

I'd have to see that paper for myself and if it can be faked.

They even fake the laser warning label these days.

[c3sk]

Originally Posted by Danke

I"m sure I'll hear about that enforcement blitz on the news. If they catch him I bet the driver's name is Deiter.

lol

Originally Posted by Metalsynth

So what basically people are saying from what I've heard from the beginning is that the solution would be to have an equivalent of a chrony for lasers...

Until we see that day, lasers are still banned at my events.

In the end it is up to the host, which I think is the best policy.

[Qlong]

You can fake paperwork, you can fake stickers. But real lasers are very very very easy to tell apart from clones. The 2.5mm audio jack is also a dead giveaway.

The easiest way to check is to get an Insight/LDI compatible pressure switch.

Tell the player to unplug his switch, plug in yours to check. Done.

I don't know how this thread brought about so much laser fear mongering, it's stupid simple.

Class 1 only, no other lasers. No chrony, no IR safety glasses, no danger. It's as black and white as it gets!

[Gato]

Originally Posted by bean

Rampart is the only company bringing them in. It takes a 300 dollar license from the states per laser. Its included in their price. Honestly its not hard though if you didnt buy a LDI, Insight, Laser Max or other reputable class 1 laser from a proper retailer dont bring it to the game. Unless your 110% sure its eye safe and sold and manufactured and tested with proper specs. If you have to ask if its ok chances are its not. If its made in China for airsofters forget using it.


Also Gato you seem to have flip flopped on this because at one time you planned to get one and talked about it a lot.

The intended use of my laser was never airsoft, hence the reason you don't see it on the field....

Originally Posted by Deltastone

My understanding of US export permits is 300 dollar fee per application not item, meaning you could have multiple items on one permit. Buy a couple of lasers at once and you save on the export fee. Something to consider for the gear whore with more money than brains. I could be wrong so someone should check before buying.

The one thing I am certain of is that paperwork will specifically state that those lasers are yours... Forever. So no group buys. Don't want the State Department laying an egg.

In regard to the parts I've put in bold: Or, you know, not just for those with more money than sense, which practically all you NV and Laser owners are, there's also likely a set of people who would rather not qualify as smugglers of arms related materials...

Though I do agree, if you are looking for multiple items for yourself, yes, it's a good idea to look into and while I'm not sure, I believe you may be correct.

The second part could prove very useful in the event you suffer any issues with your device, as unlike the majority of owners currently traipsing around ASC, you would be, provably, the legal owner of the device and entitled to claim warranty and repair. I also agree that pissing off the State Department is not a good idea.

[Derpystronk]

Originally Posted by Gato

Or, you know, not just for those with more money than sense, which practically all you NV and Laser owners are, there's also likely a set of people who would rather not qualify as smugglers of arms related materials...

Oh I didn't mean it as a tongue in cheek way to suggest circumventing ITAR. I just meant it as the typical response to how the community views Night Vision in general, ie we are all rich but stupid. Personally I think it's a bit much for someone to walk away with five 1000+ dollar lasers, probably using his shirt like a basket because he can't carry them himself.

Originally Posted by Qlong

The easiest way to check is to get an Insight/LDI compatible pressure switch.

Yes, but apparently not fool proof. I have a fake PEQ from long before I started using real ones that uses a real pressure switch. I actually use that fauxPEQ's switch on my real laser as I quite like it.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Now I may see a few people somewhat directly avoiding the question that was posed earlier: the question of "Do you point the laser at someones face." There is alot of restating that something is eye safe, but without much real explanation of what that entails. The real answer here clearly won't be the most popular one, but I've never been the most well received in Airsoft anyways so if someone new hates me for saying this... Oh well.

To answer the question of "Is it fine to [aim at the face] in that case since your laser is eye-safe, or do you wait for another body part to be exposed just to be extra safe?" Basically, is it alright to aim these devices at someones face or even their eyes?

The answer is yes. You can point that laser at someones face and pull the trigger.

This seems counter intuitive for what we know about lasers. Your standard dollar store laser is "eye safe" as long as you don't have direct, prolonged direct exposure to the beam. Which would be true of any red laser: keep it away from the face. Class 1 lasers are a fair bit different however. Due to the insanely low output power of a Class 1 laser, in any condition we come up in playing Airsoft there is no way for this laser to cause any sort of retina damage. Ever. Period.

Class 1 Laser (Revised classification system)
A Class 1 laser is safe under all conditions of normal use. This means the maximum permissible exposure (MPE) cannot be exceeded when viewing a laser with the naked eye or with the aid of typical magnifying optics (e.g. telescope or microscope).

Class 1 Laser (Old classification system)
Inherently safe; no possibility of eye damage. This can be either because of a low output power (in which case eye damage is impossible even after hours of exposure), or due to an enclosure preventing user access to the laser beam during normal operation, such as in CD players or laser printers.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety#Class_1

It is safe to do so. It is safe to laze someone in the eyes for a prolonged period without risk of liquefying their retinas. It poses no danger. This is where the black and white element comes in; if it's eye safe it's eye safe. There is absolutely no logical reason why these devices should be barred from entry onto the field from a player perspective. Some hosts may not have the know how, or feel as though as there is too much of a hassle to regular the lasers - this is fine. This is that hosts game.

As an aside I'd just like to state standard practice usually has people NOT aiming at peoples faces on purpose. The idea is more or less for accidental exposure to the eyes. The point I'm making here is that yes, you can do it and yes, it is safe.

But someone might argue that a player can forge papers, or sneak lasers onto the field. As a host and an apparent member of the Night Vision bourgeoisie, it's a very nice thing that there are not many lasers out there that are Class 1. It's not hard to become familiar with all the existing models out there. Compared to what China is cloning and what is real, it's practically a non-issue determining real from fake almost immediately.

But what about the lasers that have overlap from fake to real? PEQ-15's? There are so little of them around that most people are on a first name basis with the owners. The China clones also feel quite a bit different physically and make have the altered remote switch port on the rear. A real LDI DBAL? Son, that is an uphill battle. Personally I haven't had the chance to hold a real DBAL yet. You need to prove to me, as a host, that thing is legitimate. If I have any doubt what so ever about the legitimacy of this unit, it's not hitting the field. (Luckily on that note I'll be able to get some grope time comparing a real DBAL and a fake one at Hornet.)

It's just that simple; if the host has reason to believe the laser may not be real or even the gut feeling that this guy just seems off... Don't let it on the field. It's not a difficult concept.

On the sneaking lasers bit, people will do it anyways. Luckily these people are fairly easy to spot from the player perspective cause their damn lasers are light sabers at night time. At games where there might only be one guy with night vision on the field using a laser on a number of people who will never see the beam... That is where the real problem starts. If he's the only one who can see it, no one else can call him out on it. Since he snuck a laser onto the field, he's already breaking the rules? What can be done about it? Not much.

It's funny that this thread has taken to the "ban everything" culture that is surrounding the current gun debates going on in the United States. The parallels are almost hilarious. The difference is that all it takes for a gun to become dangerous to someone else is to use it in a way that is against the law. The difference here is that you can't turn a Class 1 laser and make it dangerous with the exception of certain PEQ boxes. It doesn't become a circumstantial thing where they are only safe for use in Airsoft under set conditions, using it beyond those conditions makes it dangerous. No, if it is a class 1 laser it is safe. Period. Black and white.

But if we suggest banning all lasers, its in an effort to minimize the amount of dangerous lasers hitting the field... Basically to try and stop the rule breakers from breaking the rules. The real risk was never at a big game, where it has more regulation and more players looking out for each other... The real risk was always at that small, 25 person night game where only the offending players have NODs. Banning lasers from all games - big and small - does absolutely nothing to address that issue. Those guys will keep breaking the rules when they can; putting people at risk.

The issue isn't "If there is 100 people, half with night vision, how do we prevent someone from using an unsafe laser." The issue is "how do we prevent someone from using an unsafe laser when there is only one person with night vision on the field." Frankly, I don't know if there is a solution to that issue.

[bean]

Originally Posted by Gato

The intended use of my laser was never airsoft, hence the reason you don't see it on the field....



In regard to the parts I've put in bold: Or, you know, not just for those with more money than sense, which practically all you NV and Laser owners are, there's also likely a set of people who would rather not qualify as smugglers of arms related materials...

Though I do agree, if you are looking for multiple items for yourself, yes, it's a good idea to look into and while I'm not sure, I believe you may be correct.

The second part could prove very useful in the event you suffer any issues with your device, as unlike the majority of owners currently traipsing around ASC, you would be, provably, the legal owner of the device and entitled to claim warranty and repair. I also agree that pissing off the State Department is not a good idea.

Gato you sound a bit butt hurt that your commissionaire job isn't working out for you and making you rich while some people have money they can spend on their leisure activities.

I have this odd feeling if the foot was on the other shoe you wouldn't be saying that.

Just like any sport some people have a bit more money to spend on it then others whether it be racing, golf, paintball or shooting. Some people are most defintly not responsible with their money and own 15k worth of gear and have no other assets like a house or car. To each their own but you sound like the kid who got gobots instead of transformers for christmas.

[m102404]

I'm not really in the know with lasers/etc...

Even though the Class 1 definitions that are posted here say that they must be safe/etc to use...does that "normal use" really encompass shining it at person's eyes? I get that there's light splash/reflections/etc...and that red colours make you blink faster than green, etc...but we're basically going to be pointing them at each other. I really appreciate the amount of research and education that some of the guys have put into this.

I think that each and every player on the field, and the owner, and the insurer, etc.. has to assume that if lasers/etc...are in play, that they'll be pointed in someone's eyes. Directly, indirectly, accidentally and on purpose.

We wear goggles because that's the one spot that can get permanently injured with airsoft. You can get broken teeth, skin punctures, etc...but those can be fixed/healed. You can shoot/unload/blast at good goggles essentially indefinitely at any range and they'll take it. We mandate that eyepro be able to take wicked shots and shrug them off.

Can the same be said for these things? If so, and you want to test them, why not just have the owner submit to being zapped with their own laser/gizmo straight in the eyeball? If they're not "safe" enough to do that...then their use should be disallowed.

[Nickaayyy]

Find it sad that laser are banned, I use them to help my sniper to spot the enemy when he's not findind our target (flash the laser on the lower body or even next tothe target, just o show where they are), I know they can be some risk so I use my brain when using them.

Just sad because of morons they are banned when they can be useful... Oh well gonna use them with my friends and gonna wait for a solution for those lasers

[ShelledPants]

Originally Posted by m102404

I'm not really in the know with lasers/etc...

Even though the Class 1 definitions that are posted here say that they must be safe/etc to use...does that "normal use" really encompass shining it at person's eyes? I get that there's light splash/reflections/etc...and that red colours make you blink faster than green, etc...but we're basically going to be pointing them at each other. I really appreciate the amount of research and education that some of the guys have put into this.

I think that each and every player on the field, and the owner, and the insurer, etc.. has to assume that if lasers/etc...are in play, that they'll be pointed in someone's eyes. Directly, indirectly, accidentally and on purpose.

We wear goggles because that's the one spot that can get permanently injured with airsoft. You can get broken teeth, skin punctures, etc...but those can be fixed/healed. You can shoot/unload/blast at good goggles essentially indefinitely at any range and they'll take it. We mandate that eyepro be able to take wicked shots and shrug them off.

Can the same be said for these things? If so, and you want to test them, why not just have the owner submit to being zapped with their own laser/gizmo straight in the eyeball? If they're not "safe" enough to do that...then their use should be disallowed.

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...r_Safety.shtml

This is a good, simple read, not just for you: but in general.

There are two systems, old and new, and both classify Class 1 in the same light. That it cannot cause eye damage of any kind even after hours of prolonged direct exposure even under magnification. The new class system also distinguishes between Class 1 and Class 1M, where Class 1M is an eye safe laser UNLESS magnified.

LDI Class 1 laser's are safe for hours of direct exposure to the eye and are designed with force on force training in mind.

The Sun for example, has more potential for blindness from directly looking at it than any Class 1 Laser.

EDIT: To address some of the comments above, an attack on character of individuals who are informed on the tech they possess instead of the issue at hand (misuse of lasers, misinformation of laser output power, fear mongering), is exactly what the desperate do in an argument they can't win with documented scientific theory.

If you have a personal vendetta against NVG users, that's fine, but if your argument is constantly tuned to the pitch of "burn the witch" eventually the townsfolk will realize that you're the nutter and you might end up on the wrong end of the burning pier.

[horto]

The bigger issue is with fake/china lasers that are not eye safe, and the players coming out of the woodwork that have not educated themselves enough to realize that. The IR variants of those lasers are even more problematic because you can't see them coming at you.

If, this season, hosts will start checking lasers as they do hot guns, then perhaps we're making progress... But until you can actually prove/test/enforce, it is still a contentious issue.

[Danke]

A good read in pants's link and it raises a point I haven't seen here. Shining a laser on a magnifying optic can make that "safe" laser unsafe.

[ShelledPants]

Originally Posted by Danke

A good read in pants's link and it raises a point I haven't seen here. Shining a laser on a magnifying optic can make that "safe" laser unsafe.

As stipulated by the two different classes, Class 1 and Class 1M... All LDI Class 1 Lasers are Class 1 and not Class 1M... for example: Making that Class 1 safe laser just as safe if you beamed it into a telescope attached to your retina for 12 hours straight.